Colin

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Colin Absolam immigrated to the United States when he was 11 years old. Incarcerated at 19 years old, he served 25 years in prison and earned parole at his first appearance before the Parole Board, but was transferred directly to ICE detention. He was released from detention after receiving a pardon from Governor Andrew Cuomo. Currently, Colin works with Exodus Transitional Community at Rikers Island.

Photographed by Aviva Klein. Note: interview has been lightly edited for readability.

Interviewer 0:02  

Could you tell us your full name, the date and your current location?

Colin 0:17  

So my name is Colin Absolam. Today is November 5, 2020. And I am currently in the Bronx.

Interviewer 0:35  

Can you tell us how you came to this project, and to the Immigrant Defense Project?

Colin 0:48  

Um, I don't know if we have enough time for that [laughing], just kidding. Um, so maybe about 10, 12 years ago, I was incarcerated. So I was in Sing Sing Correctional Facility, and I was a part of an organization called the Caribbean African Unity Organization. And it pretty much caters to Caribbean people who were incarcerated and it kinda helps them with an introductory to, you know, what incarceration is like, and some of the do's and don'ts. And you know, it helps them adjust. So, at one point, I was trying to do this event for some of the members because a lot of the members were facing deportation. So I reached out to a number of organizations like I was writing letters, I was on the letter writing campaign, I wrote maybe about 200 letters. And a few responded, but IDP was one of the organizations that responded, though they weren't able to come to the event, they did thank me for reaching out and thinking of them. And the event never took place, the administration didn't allow it. But that was my first introduction to IDP. Um, and then sometime in... I believe it was, this was last year 2019, maybe November, December, January, somewhere around there, um, I...

…so, a little background. In 1993 I was arrested, I was incarcerated and sentenced to 25 years to life. Then I was transferred from Rikers Island to the Department of Corrections New York State, I went to Downstate, and then I went to Attica Correctional Facility. My stay there was short, you know, there was a few incidents there with staff, there's a lot of racism in facilities up further up north, so they ended up transferring me to Sing Sing.

And when I got to Sing Sing it was a totally different environment. It was still, you know, a prison, but it was a totally different environment. Like they had a lot of opportunities, a lot of things like education, programming. And it basically was just up to guys taking advantage of it, so immediately, you know, when I got there, there was some older guys who were more like mentors, and they would, you know, grab up all the younger guys coming through and point them in the right direction. I had a number of mentors, but one in particular, um, Mervyn Otero, he worked for this program called PACE, Prisons for AIDS Counseling Education, and it provides HIV/AIDS education to the population. And he did a presentation at one of the CAU — with a Caribbean African Unity organization membership meeting monthly membership meeting, and he passed the paper around asking guys to sign up for a program, so I did, and next thing I knew it, time came up for enrollment, so I took the class, passed the class, then he signed me up for the advanced class, I took the advanced class and passed that. And then he started inviting me up to the to the PACE office.

He would tell me little things like I need your help with this, I need your help me put the call out together callouts is like passes that allow guys who are incarcerated to get from one area to another, it authorizes individuals to be in a particular area, or a program, or what have you. So, um, I didn't know it at the time, but he was like, grooming me and preparing me, because shortly after he was transferred to a medium correctional facility. So when he left, he recommended that I replaced him in the PACE program, it was, it was a lot. Because, like, in my mind, I'm saying, this guy's like, kind of leaving the responsibility of a program on me like, I'm not worthy, like, you know, why would he do that? I'm freaking out.

So, I mean, I had all the guys working there, and they helped me through the process. So it was - it was Merv, and the direction he pointed me in that kind of pushed my life in a certain direction. And not just in there, a lot of other guys there that were mentors as well. So, um, I signed up for a certificate program. It's a one year program. It's like a pre-college program, a certificate in Ministry of Human Services. And I took that, and I was taking every program that I had, every workshop, and I was just doing things to keep busy and active. So I took that, and right after completing that program, the superintendent at the time, Brian Fisher, he wanted - he wanted to give guys opportunities, who didn't have college credits before, so to be able to enroll in Mercy College. So he worked something out with Mercy College and Hudson Link. Hudson Link is the program, the not-for-profit organization that works with DOCCS and colleges, Mercy College to actually get the college program into the facility, or facilities. So, Brian Fisher worked it out and guys were able to take an entrance exam. Unfortunately, the day that I was supposed to take the entrance exam, I was, you know, trying to appeal my case, I was working on legal issues. So I didn't actually get a chance to, I didn't take the entrance exam. So you know, I still was going to other programs. And then in 2010, the opportunity came again, they started this new pre-college program, which allowed individuals to take that program...  

[connection cut out from Colin during zoom call]

Colin  7:56  

...enrolled in Mercy College. So I did that. I was writing Sean Pica, the director of Hudson Link - I wrote him a letter, one letter per week, for the entire year, [chuckle] to get him to get me enrolled in that program. And it worked. It worked. So I enrolled in that program. It was a year process. I took it, I completed it, took the entrance exam, and I got into Mercy College, that was 2011. In between that time, I was also involved in a program called Forgotten Voices. So Forgotten Voices was, it was a group of guys who decided that, you know, we kind of contributed to the current climate of our community, by whatever it was that we were doing, whatever criminal activities or negative activities that were on that we were engaged in that that contributed to how the community is now.

So we sat down and we bounced ideas around, tried to figure out like, what can we do to help? If we help create the problem, we will be a part of the solution. So I came up with this... it’s not an organization, it's a committee, Forgotten Voices. And what we did was, we reached out to a number of New York state legislators and community based organizations and religious bodies, and we try to invite them in to come into the facility to have a sit-down with us. Because these are some of the people who we felt at the time that we were we would be able to work with to actually address some of the issues in our community. So some senators responded, they didn't all respond, but some did. And, um, one senator in particular, Senator Velmanette Montgomery from Brooklyn, um. She came in, and, um, we met, we presented her with a proposal of things that we wanted to address, and she was impressed. She was moved. And she said she was going to come back. So she did come back. And she brought a number of nonprofit organizations, a bunch of religious groups, churches, I mean, it was, it was amazing, she brought them in, and she said, listen, these guys are guys that you need to work with in order to address some of the issues that's taking place in the community. And so we made a pledge that day, and we pledged that we will try to raise about $5,000 from inside to pledge to a gun buyback program because like, at the end of the day, we all came to the conclusion that most of the issues revolve around gun violence. And because some of us were individuals who participated in that activity, you know, it was clear to us that that was an issue that needed to be addressed. So with the help of the administration, and some of the organizations within the facility, we raised almost $8,000 from inside. So next time the senators came in, they were like, blown away. They were like, what, how, how are you able to raise almost $8,000 a year when people only make like 22 to 23 cents an hour? How is that possible?

Interviewer 11:56  

I was going to ask the same thing?

Colin 11:57  

Like we literally went from cell to cell, and some guys donated a nickel, dime $1, $5, $10 and then we went to go to the organizations inside the facility, and they contributed. And so we got almost $8,000, and then the senators brought the group back, with not for profit organizations, the religious groups, brought them back. And so the groups backpedaled because, you know, they, at one point, said that we didn't agree that we were going to match your funds, which they did, and we had recorded it, so that kinda... set us back a bit, but we've still kept going.

And we've met with Senator Montgomery numerous times after that. And then from that, another group was formed out of that group called Voices From Within that was, you know, spring boarded with the help of the superintendent, the Commissioner of Corrections, Dan Slepian an NBC producer for Dateline, and a few of us who were part of Forgotten Voices. And then we, now we were targeting young people, as you know, trying to help them to not make some of the same mistakes we did, and then up in, you know, and ending up in prison, so we ended up doing a short film called was the film with Voices from Within, and it was guys who, you know, were taking responsibility and showed remorse for, you know, the crime that we committed. I was one of the individuals involved in that film as well. And the film ended up being used by the New York State Board of Education, the Department of Probation. And like, anyone who's on parole now, like pretty much has to watch the video as part of the parole process.

So all that was going on, this is between 2010 and 2019, so in June sometime, 2019 I went to my parole hearing, I went in November. And you know, it didn't, there were some issues with all my documents. So they had to postpone it. And then I went back in January, and I was denied parole then. So there’s a program called LC, LCTA, Limited Credit Time Allowance, which means that if you're participating in some events, some programs that are on the list that you'll be able to go see a parole board six months earlier. So I went six months earlier because I was, you know, I was a college student. So I was denied. And then my initial parole board was in March, or May, May, so I went in May, and I was granted parole. And that's when, like, pretty much everything just went left. So I was granted parole, and then I was transferred from Sing Sing Correctional Facility, which I spent most of my time in Sing Sing to spend about 20 to 21 years in Sing Sing. So I was transferred to Fishkill correctional facility, which is a medium facility. And that's when it kind of like, hit me that, listen, this deportation issue is serious, because like, once they transfer you to another facility, certain things come into play, you're limited on the amount of property you could have. And there's a time set on which you would be moved from that facility or those facilities to an immigration facility. So, um, I was prepared. And so I had met a professor, Warner Williams, when I was in the master's program. So after I graduated from Mercy College, I went to the master's program...New York Theological Seminary. So while there I met a professor, and she was a different type of Professor like, she didn't follow the curriculum. She wanted to know more about the students, she would ask us questions like, what are some of the things you'd like to do? What are your hobbies? Questions that professors don't normally ask. So she was trying to get information out of - it was trying to pull things out of us to see what it is or what it was that she could pinpoint, and use those things to get guys, you know, moving more or thinking about their future more.

So, um, you know, I participated in that little project. And she asks, you know, what do you guys plan on doing when you leave here, and, you know, when it came to me, I told her that I was facing deportation. So I had no idea what I was going to do. It was a totally different environment, one that I left when I was 10 years old, really all speak the language the way that I should, and it'll be all new to me. So she said, “Well I'm gonna see what I can do.” And so that was 2018.

In between 2018 and 2019, she was working. I had no idea the extent of her work, but she was working, she was making contacts calling people trying to figure this thing out. She was like, running up and down, left and right, like she was really pushing. And so I eventually was moved, I believe it was August, I was moved to Buffalo Federal Detention Facility, that is a immigration facility where they'll send individuals to, who are facing deportation and you know, depends on individuals case, you could fight it there or… you could just...  go through the process. So while I was there [inaudible]... when I was in Fishkill, I would call her on the regular and she reached out to Professor Steve Zeidman at CUNY Law School. And she wrote a letter which was the deciding factor, this was the reason why and I found this out later… this was the reason why the professor decided to take my case. Now mind you, he gets letters for… [inaudible]... what makes my situation special. And so I've found out fairly recent that it was the letter that she wrote, the letter was so moving that he said, “Listen, we're going to take this case.” So he assigned it to a law student. Now this is [inaudible]...

Colin 19:54  

So she's in what is called an immigration clinic. So it’s uh, they actually help individuals with different projects. So one individual I know, he was going to parole. So her assignment was to help me [inaudible]... interviewed him, sat down with him to actually, you know, I guess you would say do role plays and how to prepare yourself for a parole hearing. So she had already done her project for that class. So [inaudible] it was not like she's getting extra credit for it. So the professor, you know, asked her, so would you be interested in taking on another client? And she said, “sure, why not?” And that's you know, started the ball rolling. She visited me, her and [inaudible]... they would interview and got as much information as they possibly could. [Inaudible] So I prepared my parole packet package...

Interviewer 21:14  

Sorry Colin to interrupt you, but your sound every like 20 seconds, gets kind of like, staticky...

Interviewer 21:30

It’s still breaking up a little bit. It might be the internet connection, it's hard to tell.

Interviewer 2 21:39

I think it might be your microphone?

Colin 21:46  

Oh okay. How about now?

Interviewer 21:47  

Yeah that's good. Okay.

Colin 21:55  

Where was I… Oh I know I was speaking about Pierina. So they interviewed me and, and at one point, she said that, what made... [inaudible]... easier was the fact that I had already done my parole package… So I prepared my own parole package, and I had turned that over to the law school to actually have help prepare a package that will be submitted later on out, this package would be a pardon package, because it was decided that this is what we're going to do in order for me to not be deported, they try to [inaudible] to the pardon application for me. And that would hopefully prevent me from getting deported. So, they started working on it. And so the way the pieces were coming together was amazing. Nothing short of miraculous. [Inaudible]... From what I understand, one of Pierina’s coworkers used to work at IDP, And he was at an event. And, you know, he met with somebody, I think it was you. And, you know, said something, I guess, you know, maybe this is something you'd be interested in. And next thing you know, called Pierina, gave her your number or an exchange of numbers took place and IDP got involved. And, yeah, not just one person at IDP, like I believe it was the entire organization was involved in this process.

Interviewer 23:45 

Yeah it was a lot of folks.

Colin 23:49 

Um, so I was moved to Buffalo Federal Detention Facility. And that was... so out of my entire time of incarceration that, up to that point, that was the worst [inaudible] I was used to being active...[inaudible] I'm used to being involved in programs, I'm used to doing things, I'm used to working, there it was like, nothing, there was no programs, there was like, there was a law library and time and the law library was limited. You spend most of your time inside of [your cells]. So it wasn't, it wasn't an environment that works towards someone, you know, being healthy in the mind. That place was like driving me crazy. Um, and then, you know, that's why I was actually introduced to tablets. You know, I missed that whole technological advancement. So, you know, when I went in, our cell phone was about this big, look like the phones they use in Army with the long antenna. Um, so you know, when I got there, I saw a tablet and I was told you can make video calls and I'm like, Oh my god, this is crazy. And I'm actually making video calls and seeing people's faces on the screen. I was amazed. So that was my first introduction to 21st century technology.

And then, so I was moved and sent to ah… I was flown... I was driven to Pennsylvania, [inaudible]...  I was flown to Texas, then I was flown to Louisiana. Now Louisiana is -  it's - it's a detention facility that is situated on the airport. So I don't know... [inaudible] you get there, and the airport people all they do is just cuff you and then walk you towards tarmac, and you're on a plane. So then when I got there, I spent seven days there. And when I got there, that's when to me that was the entire, my entire time was like the worst of my entire incarceration. Right? Worst—bad. It was cold. They had no heat. You could shower but weren't allowed, well, you didn't have access to your property like lotion, deodorant. So I had to wash my underwears and hang them up to dry so I have them to put back on because, you know, didn't have access to it. And it was so cold that it pretty much it took a few days for them to dry. So it was - it was bad there. But I'm there and going through the process. I'm still communicating with the attorneys. I'm still trying to help get my pardon package together. It was submitted by that time, so a friend... 

Interviewer 27:26  

You just froze. Colin… There you go...You were saying, “a friend something,” and then you cut out.

Colin 27:39  

Um, his name is Daniel Gross. He's a journalist. And he, so, I was involved in this program called RTA, when I was in Sing Sing, and it's Rehabilitation Through Art. So they use art as a rehabilitative tool, as a rehabilitative tool to help guys find different ways or better ways to communicate and deal with, you know, personal issues. And we put on plays. And at one of the plays, this journalist came, and he interviewed me and we spoke, we laughed and joked around. And at some point, um, I believe Professor. No no no, not Professor Zeidman, one of the Vice President for in NYTS, New York Theological Seminary for the Master's Program, spoke with him—the journalist and then said something like, he said, they were about to hang up the phone and he said to him, um, “you know, there's a guy, you know, you might be interested in this case, just know, give it a look.” And he saw that he said, “Oh, I know this guy,” he said, perfect.

So he got in touch with me. And he interviewed me for three days, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Now, this was the Friday, Saturday, Sunday was the weekend before I was being transferred from Buffalo Federal Detention Facility to another ICE facility. So he had to do the interview before I left. Because in Louisiana, you have no access to attorneys, and you know, it's pretty bad. So he interviewed me and he said, “You know, I have to reach out to someone to see if they will publish it and it’s not guaranteed, they might not want to do it.” By Tuesday, I learned that it was going to be published and it was going to be published in the New York Times. And he had spoken to one of the editors and they agreed to it. So it was published Tuesday night, Wednesday morning. And that Thursday morning was when I was supposed to be put on the plane and being deported. So, that Wednesday night, I didn't find out that Wednesday night. So around maybe five, five o'clock, six o'clock, I got on the phone, I called my brother. And he said, “Yo you got it!” I said, “Got what?” And he said, “You got the pardon!” I mean, I belted out some profanities, because I told him do not to F with me, do not play with me right now, this is - this is serious, this is not a joking matter at all.

Interviewer 30:53  

You were going to be put on a plane to be deported in like eight hours.

Colin 30:55  

Yes. So, um, yeah. So, um, he said, you have to call the attorney. So I hung up and called the attorneys and only thing I remember hearing was, “Do not say anything. Just be quiet. All I need for you to do is authorize this, this and this, say yes to everything. Um, do you agree to have this attorney represent you? Yes.” Do you agree to, you know, a bunch of different things I kept saying ‘yes.’ And I think it was, um, I can't even remember which attorney it was. 

Interviewer 31:40

Ryan?

Colin 31:43

Ryan, yes. So, um, they called, he was on another line, I was on the phone with her. And she was just relaying back and forth, what was being said, and about 11:55, so in that facility at 12 o'clock, you have to like, walk into the cells and you know, get locked in, so this is like the day is over. So at around 11:55 Pierina tells me she said, “Oh, by the way, I was in touch with another attorney, she has a client there at your facility. He has a stay, meaning he should not be deported, the courts intervened and he has a stay.” So she said, I need you to find him. Now, mind you, up until that point, all she kept saying was do not get on that plane, whatever you do, do not get on that plane, because you have a pardon, you have a stay, do not get on that plane. So that was fixed in my mind. And five minutes before I was supposed to get locked in, she tells me all you have to find him.

So I put the phone down. And I ran down the entire tier, asking, like yelling out this guy's name. No one knew him because he wasn't on my side. I was like okay, now, what am I to do? So I, you know, I had to lock in, I’m in the cell, and I'm thinking, okay, if that was me, I would want this person to find like, let me know, I should not get on this plane, because I have a stay. And if he did get on the plane, and he's deported, it would be like, really hard for him to come back. So I'm debating because I made up my mind that I was going to stay in the cell and not come out. And that would force an ICE agent to have to actually come to the cell to find out what's going on, and then I would explain, I had a stay, I shouldn't get on the plane. So that's, that was what my mind, you know, what was placed in my mind. So then when she tells me I have to find this guy, I'm like debating so I actually didn't sleep at night. I'm debating like, do I come out? Because if I come out, once I'm out, they'll just place the cuffs on me, and that is it. There's no going back. If I stay in, then it would be a little difficult for them to actually place the cuffs on me. 

Interviewer 34:10

Wow

Colin 34:15

So 4:30 came, and they came knocking and I say know what, I said the F word and I came out um, they did the placement, they all cuffed me and shackled me and everything… Walked me to...  So the way that the facility is set up, there's a…looks it's so it's like a regular airport—seats, and they line the different groups up, that there are, how they're going to sit on a plane and you know, what country they're going to. So, they had about maybe 150 people, no position, near seating order. And so I was standing up [inaudible]... shackles and cuffs, and yelling this guy’s name like, “Does anyone know Campbell? Does anyone know Campbell?” ... And you know, I’m yelling it out, and in a regular facility that will be, that's a charge, right? Because, you know, you're not supposed to create noise disturbance.

So that's what I was if they really wanted to charge me so one person said it was him and I explained to him and someone else said, No, it's not him. It's that guy over there. So I went to him, and I explained it to him and was like, “Okay,” and then. So this, this is like five minutes before we're supposed to be placed on the airplane. I told the ICE agent that I had a stay and, you know, I'm asking him to check the records to make sure. And he left. And when he checked it and came back, and he told me and Campbell, Mr. Campbell that yeah you do have a stay, he told the officer to take the cuffs off me.That was it. So I was like, five minutes away from being put on that plane. So it was - it was crazy. Um, like thinking about it now? I don't know. It was just a different experience, it was overwhelming. Definitely. I know it's weird, people say sometimes you see your life flash before your eyes, literally saw my life flash before my eyes. I mean, overall, I think my journey was meant for me. Like, it was meant for me to go through this process, because I think the person that I am now is a result of everything I've gone through, like I wouldn't be who I am or where I am right now, if I didn't go through the different things that I went through—good and bad. You know, so I mean, look at the result, like I'm, I'm here with IDP and a bunch of students, and we're venturing off on a project. Hopefully, that'll help, you know, others. It’s definitely an amazing experience.

Interviewer 37:30  

Thank you for sharing all of that background. It is true that a lot of things had to fall into place for you to even get to the point of being in contact with us (IDP). And you summarized a lot of years into a short time. You know, one person is the reason you knew another person, which is the reason why something else happened that led you to getting to know IDP, which is kind of how life works sometimes. It’s like you said, it does feel miraculous, you know.

Colin 38:10  

There's no doubt in my mind that it's, it's a miracle. Like, I believe that 100% because, for one, so there were so many different moving parts in this whole process. And like, if one piece was just out of place, it would have toppled the whole process. You know? Like I haven't even met everyone who was involved in this process. And they were people. So majority of the, like 90% of the people involved, I don't know. And it was just like the right time for a group of people who never met each other to actually be involved in something that was, it was like a movement. You know, so that was, it was definitely amazing. And so, Ryan said something that, and I think he discussed it at the office when I was at IDP’s office, and he was explaining how it was possible for him to be able to file a motion in the courts.

So when I - when I got to Buffalo Federal Detention Facility, I was trying to find out what it was that I could do to like, stall the deportation process. So, you know, I had a bunch of different motions filed in the courts, but it was because I did that, that allowed him to actually file a motion that I guess supplemented the motion I had put in, if I had no motions and I would have been, I would have not been here. I wouldn't have been on this Zoom call with you. It was a  lot of different parts, a lot of different people. The timing was like, perfect. There's no other way to describe it other than it being a miracle. 

Interviewer 40:16  

I want to ask you a little bit about before—before being incarcerated—before, when you first came to the United States. What are some of your first memories of coming here? Your impressions of what you saw, when you arrived? I know, you were pretty young, you said you were 10. 

Colin 40:45  

So it was cold, for me, it was and it wasn’t even the wintertime, it was like September.

Interviewer 40:51

Where were you coming from?

Colin 40:53

So I came from Jamaica, the plane landed in Florida, then we took another plane from Florida to New York. When I got off, I was like, oh my god, like, it was cold, it was cold. It really wasn't freezing cold, but he was just, I'm used to, like tropical temperatures. So this was the like, that was something that stuck in my mind. And my first winter, like seeing snow. Like, I was, like, amazed, like, I'm running outside, grabbing snow with my hands. And then after maybe five minutes, I realized that I couldn't feel my fingers. Okay, so this is what snow feels like. That, um... School was a - it was a different - it was different. Um, it was, I was like, I was bullied a lot. So you know, I spoke different, I look different, I dress different. So that was, um, something that I can't forget. And pretty much I had to like fight every day, after school. The good side of it is it helped me to develop strategies of evading you know, the bullies, like, I’d figure it out, I would leave class maybe 10 minutes early, and try to make it out one of the six exits at the school, so you know, guys wouldn't get to me, but they got smart as well, they figured it out. So they would leave class 10 minutes early, and then, eventually, they had all their exits covered. So I couldn't get around that. But that was - that was, um, kids could be really mean.

Interviewer 42:51

Yeah

Colin 42:52

That's something that that, you know, I think contributed to my lifestyle, you know, growing up, and like, not not to be blaming anything on that, because it's not a it's not about blaming is, to me, it’s looking at the things that contributed to how a person turns out, as opposed to saying, you know, that made me this way, when it's about choices. And how you use the experience in making better choices. Prior to my incarceration, I was incarcerated at 19, but my mind was that of like, a 16 year old, 15, 16 year old like, I still thought like... I was still playing with GI Joe action figures. You know, so yeah, so that I remember. I also remember my mom, you know, working three jobs sometimes like as, as like children we used to say, bustin’ her ass, working three jobs, trying to make sure that we had a better life. So, I mean, those are some of the things that I remember coming in at a young age.

Interviewer 44:22

What were some of the reasons that your family moved to the US at that time?

Colin 44:31  

Oh, my mom definitely, she just wanted us to have a better life. She wanted to bring us over here. Um, so the area in Jamaica where my father lived was, it was Kingston, so it was a bit rough. And like normally during election time, it gets pretty bad like the political system there is more brutal and violent and a lot of people died on both sides. So, um, she just didn't want us to be in that environment. So, you know, she did her best to come over here. And then she would work these different jobs to save as much as he could to get me and my brothers over here.

Interviewer 45:20

So related to your having spent a little bit of time in Jamaica and then some time here, can you talk about your sense of home? And that can be however you think about it in New York, Jamaica, or something else—and whether, or how, that's changed over time, as you spent more time in the United States, or how it's evolved?

Colin 45:58  

So, because I left when I was so young, like, I have a little memory of there, but I do feel a strong connection to Jamaica because that, you know, I was born there. Like, the food and the tropical weather, and just the atmosphere to me is holy.

But I've spent more than half of my life incarcerated and so that, in a sense, felt like, you know, that was my home. It felt that way, not saying that it was but it just felt that way. Because, like, that's where I grew up. You know, when I was 19, I came out, I was like 47. Um, it did feel like that was where I became who I am. Um, it feels strange, like being in New York right now. Just seeing how much it changed and trying to, like, wrap my mind around the idea that [phone ringing] I spent most of my life there. But this is where I left, before when, you know, to go there. And it just felt a little different. I mean, the day I got out, I was looking at everything, looking at the movement of people, I was having anxiety attacks, panic attacks, I'm freaking out. I'm on the train. I'm like, like, no one respects personal space. This is what I'm seeing out here, like, I'm like, like people bumping on the train and not say, you know, excuse me or step on your foot. And, like, really, like, where I'm coming from that’s like, it's a no, no, like, it's more respect there than it is out here. So that, that was a bit overwhelming. But I don't know, it's - it's weird. I guess wrestling with that sense of what home is. Or where home is.

Interviewer 48:26  

How do you feel about that? You know, that you, you just said, you feel like having been incarcerated for most of your life, that feels like home—but when you hear that, how does that feel to you?

Colin 48:55  

Um, it feels a little weird, but I mean, it’s factual. It’s factual. Well, so I had a conversation with my son, he's 27 years old. And um, I was saying like, wow, I spent his entire life there. Like when I got arrested, he was like, nine months, nine months old. He's 27 now, so it - that's a weird experience. For me sometimes difficult to deal with because like, I wasn't there in their life, and that's a whole other issue. Oh, so, um, for me, it's - it's a matter of like, how do I how do I deal with that issue with them. Taking into consideration, you know, their experience going on out here without me and my experience, there having to go through some of the stuff that I had to go through like, it wasn't a walk in the park. Yeah, I've said, you know, I've highlighted a bunch of programs and stuff that I was doing in there, but that was I participated in those things, despite, despite the environment that I was in, despite the things that, you know, I was going through and the violence, and I mean, it's, it's, it was bad in there. And I think my motivation for getting through that experience was knowing that I had children out here that, you know, I needed to come home to, and I needed to leave there better than how I went in. So that was for me, like, you know, my motivation. And the reason why I did all the things that I did, and been involved in all the things that I've been involved in. I don't know if I answered your question. I think I just went left and...

Interviewer 51:28  

Anything that comes to mind is the right thing to say. Which is to say, there's no right thing to say. But relatedly, do you remember when your family members, maybe your sons, or other family—loved ones that you have—when they first found out about this possibility that you would be deported? Do you remember what their reactions were like? Or what those conversations were like?

Colin 51:58  

Ah, so I remember... yeah. Oh, my mom and my brother. Right? They were, they were arguing with me pretty much about why they're doing this. And I explained to them, like the law, and what it means to have a conviction and not be a citizen. And so I was explaining all this. And they were getting, like, they were more upset about it than I was, even though I was the one that was facing this, you know, uncertain future. So I had to, I had to explain it to them. They took it hard, my mom took it hard, because she was like, you know, you’ve been gone this whole time. Like, here it isn't, you know, been approved for parole on his opportunity to come home to me to see you before, you know, I leave this world and it is that, you know, they're gonna deport you. And so she was going through that. My brother was more upset. Emotionally, he and I are close. And he's been there throughout my whole entire incarceration. Like he was the reason why I would see my children at different times. I did like he would go outta his way there, actually get them in, bring them up there. So he took it hard. My son took it hard as well. And, you know, while I was there, I lost one son. So like, it was like loss after loss for my children. Like they were saying, oh, I lost a brother. And now I'm, you know, I'm losing. I lost my father the first time and now I'm losing him again, like, when does it end? My daughter, she's like the emotionless one. I know, it bothers her. And she's just not one to talk about it, you know, to her, she is one of these like, oh, but she expressed her anger with me not with the possibility of me being deported. And her not seeing me again. So yeah, they took it—they took it hard, everyone took it hard, harder than I did. And I was the one that was, you know, facing deportation.

Interviewer 54:19  

Why do you think that is? Like, when did you first realize you could be deported and how did that change anything you were doing, or your feeling about being paroled, or any of that?

Colin 54:36  

Um, so in like, 2005, I believe I was brought to immigration court. And like, I was still, you know, fairly new to the system. So it wasn't like I was like that was at the forefront of my mind. I really wasn't thinking about it that much. And plus when I went to immigration court, nothing was explained to me. Like, they didn't, you know, clarify what it meant and none of that so I'm saying, Well, you know, I know I'm not going to see parole until like, maybe 2019, 2020. So no, I'm not going to focus on that or think about that right now. So I didn't, you know, and it didn't, it didn't change, you know, me being involved in different programs or doing some of the things I just, I just did it, because I wanted to not be the same person I was when I went in. I wanted to be active and you know doing something with my time. And I definitely didn't want to be like everyone else, or a lot of other people that were there. Because I've seen some, you know, people who just wasted that time, like, did nothing. And if you fail to prepare while you're there, when you come home, you're going to fail.

Like, that's the model. So, you know, then, no, it didn't, it didn't really change much. But before I was scheduled to go to parole, that's when it kind of crept up in my mind, but I still wasn't at the front. Well, um, I think when it when it, like dawned on me was after I was granted parole, yeah, I was granted parole, and, you know, that's what it was like, Okay, I'm granted parole. So what do you think is going to happen next? Deportation process? Um, so yeah. And it sped up when I was in Fishkill, because that's, that's pretty much when it was like, in my face in my face like, this is what's going to happen in about two months, they're going to send you to a detention facility. So like, it's real, it's happening. so yeah.

Interviewer 57:13  

It was like one thing at each thing was one thing at a time, you know?

Colin 57:23  

And I think - I think the experience kind of helped me compartmentalize things. So I think that helped in a way. Like I put things in little boxes in my head. Dealt with one thing at a time. So like, I'm not a multitasker. That is - that is not me, I'm not good at multitasking. So I’ll put things in their respective boxes, and I deal with them when I get to that point. And I think that's how I looked at it.

“So overall, I think the system is - some people say it’s broken, but I don’t think it’s broken, I think it is doing exactly what it was meant to do. ”

Interviewer 57:53  

Yeah, that makes sense, yeah. Two questions about, like, the system broadly, I have. One is, based on your experience, what do you think about the system of punishment that you've been subject to?

Colin 58:22  

So, uh, I'm being honest, and I, I don't want to, or what I'm saying to be misinterpreted. But I do, I do understand the need for having a, what is termed right now, as a criminal justice system. There needs to be... if you're running a society, and you want the society to function a certain way and not you know, fall into chaos, like you have to have certain things in, in play to make sure that it doesn't, you know, fall into chaos. However, um, some of the rules, some of the laws is not, it does not apply to everyone equally across the board and that's where the issue that I will have, um, you know, um, with the system, um, I mean, I've seen, and it works both for, for someone who was inside the system and for people who work inside the system, because they are subjected to the same thing. It's just different for them because they're not allowed to take a stance or, you know, voice their opinion, to a certain degree because they work for the system. Where someone like myself, it's easier like I could say no, like, I could have refused direct orders on numerous occasion and been written misbehavior report for it, and I've been penalized for it. And at some point, like, you know, myself and other individuals have to say, you know what, no, I'm not doing that. Like, I'm not, I'm not doing that, I'm going to refuse to do that. And whatever happens happens.

At a facility like at Sing Sing, it's different in how staff respond, not totally different, but it's different. There's differences in how staff respond to a refusal of a direct order, as opposed to someplace like Clinton, Dannemora, or Attica, there, refusing a direct order is pretty much brings some violence with it, like staff, they are programmed, for one I think, because the prisons are like, some of them are the main source of finance for that community. So everyone, you know, everyone pretty much in a town works there, and family members are all, you know, working together. So, whenever there's this idea of resistance, it affects, in their mind, it affects the entire community. So they all have to respond. So it's a different response there than it is like, say, at Sing Sing, where most of the staff is, um, so-called minorities, blacks and Latinos are, up there it’s more, more white officers, matter of fact that you know, when I was at Attica, I only saw two black officers. And they pretty much knew, they knew their place, put it like that. They weren't allowed to, or they couldn't take a stance on certain things. So um, overall, I think the system is — some people say it’s broken, but I don't think it's broken, I think it is doing exactly what it was meant to do.

If you look at the immigration system, like right now, they're locking up children and taking children away from their parents like, I mean, that's, that's horrible. If the system is meant to, I guess you can say keep criminals out, like, why is it dealing with children in that manner, and where is the humanity of the people who are supposed to be in charge of this, or running this system when it comes to children? You know, mothers? And so I mean, overall, the system, I think it's, it's doing what it was meant to do. I think I do think it's a brutal system. And because it's considered a system and not you know, someone sitting and regulating it the way that it should be. I think that's why, one of the reasons why what's happening now is happening.

I mean, if, for example, say you were responsible for all five, six children, the way in which you dealt with them will be a lot different than the way the system or a system would deal with them, because the system has certain rules. So even some of the rules makes no sense. Like, they're not logical, but you know, that is the rule. And we're gonna follow it. So it's weird, in a sense, but I do agree that there has to be a check and balance. There has to be something in place to prevent a society from going into chaos. I have no idea right now, how it’s gonna look in the future or turn out because we're in some crazy time right now. 

Interviewer 1:04:28  

Do you — another thing on this, someone that IDP has worked with before, has reflected that the system never lets you go. And relatedly the question: how much punishment does one person need? Or how much punishment is enough for one person? And I'm curious where this question lands for you. 

Colin 1:05:03  

Oh, so it definitely is designed to not let go of individuals who experienced, you know, the system, in that sense. I just learned that even though someone might be off parole, that there's a database that is still kept in, and it keeps them linked to the criminal justice system. I just found that out maybe about four days ago, I was reading it on a professor's Facebook page. So it, I mean, so the individuals are arrested, they’re convicted, they’re sentenced, they’ll do the time. In some cases, they're released on parole. Then, after a certain period of time where individual exhibit certain characteristics and behaviors and show that, you know, they're no longer a threat to society, and they're taken off parole, that they're still connected to the system in some way. And one of them is the question that’s asked on, you know, job applications. So, it definitely does not leave room for letting one go from being tied to the system.

And, if you look at like, who are affected more, by the way the system keeps people tied to it, you can see that there's some disparities there, like, you know, it's not equal across the board. What I do have faith in is that young people, now, young people, like students, they're more open minded, and they're more willing to challenge what's happening a lot more than a lot of older people. So I have faith and confidence in that. But overall, the system is—I don't… and it's a brutal system, a brutal system. It does everything it has to do to hold on to people, and you have to look at the other side of it. This is a financial based system, like, you have—well you probably do—but the amount of money that is being generated from the criminal justice system is ridiculous. Like, ridiculous. I mean, I was amazed when I found out that, you know, Core Craft, and all these other different entities that people incarcerated make furniture for or work for, like 22 cents an hour, it's on the stock market, and trade on the stock market, a lot of the office supplies, desks, tables, furnitures, and everything are being made inside. Guys working for 23 cents an hour. You know, and they're being sold for hundreds and hundreds of dollars, to businesses and things like that. So, besides the racial component of it, it's also a financial component, which is benefiting a lot of people. So why would I want to let, you know—untie people from this system? Why would I want to let them go when it’s making me so much money? 

Interviewer 1:08:57

Mmmhm. 

Colin 1:09:01

So it's, and I mean, I had no idea but when I was in the detention facility, some of them are not governmental owned, they’re private groups, private organizations, private corporations that are being contracted by the government to run, to operate these facilities, which means that the rules changes a bit, because some of the rules that the government has to follow is slackened when it comes to these other entities, and funding that goes into it is less in regards to how much money they have to spend on taking care of individuals. In the state, it's what, 50, 55 to 65,000 dollars a year for each person. To house one person. And when you look at it, if you do the math, 65 dollars - 65,000 dollars, 55 to 65 does not cover what they spend on individuals in there.

Interviewer 1:10:24

Mmhm.

Colin 1:10:25

And they'll receive the minimum medical—minimum of everything. The meals that are served they even come up with a new title for this called, “quick chill”, we refer to it as “quick kill” because it eventually will do some damage to individuals eating that for a number of years. But it’s processed all the way and they put it in bags. And then the bags are dropped in these kettles, plastic bags dropped in the kettles and boiled, the food is in the bag and it’s boiled in the bag, and then they open it and pull it out and, you know, slop. And there's even a concern with BPA and other chemicals inside of the bags which are not supposed to be heated, because they seep out into the food. So I mean, financially, it benefits those in authority. And it doesn't make sense to them to want to release people from being tied to the system. So it’s a complicated thing. Leaves a lot of us wondering like, the hell is going on here? Yeah, but this is what's going on.

Interviewer 1:11:48

Yeah, um, Karelle, did you have any questions that I missed?

Interviewer 2 1:11:57

I think you covered a lot, I guess I'm just curious sort of on what you were just talking about and  having spent so much time in the system and seeing sort of the twisted logic behind it, and how it continues to sort of exploit and harm people, like beyond, sort of, making other people aware of all of that, like, what do you think—and this is maybe like, a really ambitious question, but like, what do you think can be done about that? Or, you know, beyond sort of making people aware of what's going on? Where do you—what do you think is like a next step? Or like, where can we go from there?

Colin 1:12:37

Awareness is definitely the big thing for me. Um, it's kind of a difficult question to answer outside of awareness, because, like, one of the things I was thinking was, like, some of the organizations target corporations that, you know, make profit off of people incarcerated and their families. But then, some of the businesses or other corporations that are connected to them, we deal with all, you know, normal, everyday basis, whether it's …uh... Walmart or, you know, regular Nestle. So it's kind of difficult to pull away from, you know, we support that particular system, knowingly. 

Interviewer 2 1:13:13

Yeah

Colin 1:13:15

They're coming up now, with different ways of providing products for the population. At one point, our families were allowed to just buy things and bring it up to us or send it to us. They’re limiting their ability to do that. So now, they're allowing—or some of them are actually I know, a few officers that started companies that, you know, sell products to the population. So it's—and it goes back to what I said about it being a moneymaker. You know, it produces a lot of income for a lot of people. And it's not in their interest to stop that or let it go.

One of the things that I do believe works is making a lot of noise about it, making a lot of people aware, not just out there, but inside and you know, believe it or not a lot of people on the inside are a lot more aware of what's going on than a lot of people out here. It’s weird, but you know, it's true. But making more people aware, showing all the different entities, organizations—not organizations—but corporations that are involved. And I have a friend who, her organization targets these organizations, these corporations, and, you know, she pretty much pissed them off. And they provide information that the population benefits from, and us out here benefit from. I mean, even a football team and… There’s this one guy, I don't remember his name, but like, he owns the Detroit Pistons, and, like, he's heavily invested in the prison industrial complex, like, heavily invested. So he owns the communication company.

And that's another thing, like, for example, the way that the phone system works is our families are allowed to set up an account, where they have to put money in for us to use the phone. It constantly depletes the funds, so the way the system, the way the system is set up, it forces the families that have to constantly put money on it. So if you put twenty dollars down, it might, the 20 dollars might not run out, it might get down to like six dollars, but at six dollars it’s telling you that you have to put another 20. You can't let it go below the six. So it's constantly doing that and they're doing it for the communication, they're doing it with, in the event that you want to send a loved one 30 dollars. If they do it online, it takes, it’s going to cost you maybe 15 dollars to send that 20 dollars, so, if you send a 20 they might end up getting only five. And the company gets 15. Um, so it's across the board is it's like depleting families resources, and it interferes with individuals’ ability, and family member's ability to communicate with their loved one. And that creates a whole other issue because that causes problems between family members, those who are out and those who are incarcerated. So it is, it’s horrible. Horrible.

But I believe awareness, and, you know, bringing this to the attention of our elected officials, making it part of their campaign, making it something that they're - they should be aware of, and they should work towards attacking, you know. Yeah, I mean, outside of that, I don't see anything else, um, right now. 

Interviewer 2 1:18:16  

Yeah. Yeah.  I mean, I feel like we've gotten pretty macro now with the sort of like, analysis of the system and all of its flaws. But I guess, if you have any other final thoughts about your experience that you want to share or anything that—anything else at this has sort of like jogged for you about other things you want to talk about...

Colin 1:18:41  

Uh well, I will say this. Incarceration does not discriminate. Anyone at any given time, could end up in that system. Anyone. You know, you could have mistaken identity, you could've had, you know, just a little drink and gotten in the car and, you know, accidentally hit someone or whatever the case may be. So, I think I think society needs to look more at what happens when people are sent away. Because for some, it's like, well, lock em’ up and throw away the key. But eventually, 90% of these people are going to be released, and how do you want them coming back into society? Because the system damages people. As someone who's incarcerated I have to fight, seriously fight, to not—and this was something that I used to tell myself, I told myself this from day one till the day I left there, that I refused to let that place turn me into something I’m not. And that's a fight. It's not something that you can just say and hope it happens, like you have to really, really work on it. And inside, there's a certain mindset.

I mean, I've been targeted, I've been criticized, I’ve been you know, harassed, for not doing what was the normal thing or doing what, you know, doing what I thought I should be doing. Um, and, you know, it’s hard. It's hard. But it's, it's a fight and it's important that society learns, or just knows what's going on with individuals, once they go through that system and not just think of it as you know what, lock them up and throw away the key. Because some of those people who end up there and who become worse, are going to come back to society and, you know, listen I've met some people who are… I used to say, “listen, I would not want you or allow you near my family. And if I saw you coming in any direction with my family, that there will be an issue”.  Like there are some people that I've met that are like that, you know? But, the opportunities that allow individuals to actually be better, there needs to be a lot more of that inside, and a lot of that was taken away, like most of the guys I know who've been through the college programs, like that was a savior for them. That saved them. It gave them a different way to look at things. Gave them a different way to see themselves and gave them a better outlook on life, and how to deal with others.

So, you know, I think when Governor Pataki took that away from the prison system, it really did a number and a lot of the people who were there, who missed out on that are like, pretty far gone right now. And it also boils down to choice, you know, because even though it’s that bad—like I made a choice to be who I am, and a lot of people I know are making that same choice. So it does boil down to choice. Um, but again, I like, you know, what IDP is doing. I like what a lot of organizations are doing in making people aware of what's happening with the system, what's happening with the criminal justice system, what's happening with the immigration system, because more people need to be aware. I also like the fact that students are involved in this process, because a lot of what's happening and changing the way things are right now is because of a lot of the young people. They are putting their foot down, they’re not, you know, just taking anything that's being dished out to them right now. They're like, making their voice heard. And that is like a breath of fresh air for me. I actually would have given up on all of that thinking that that's not possible, but I'm seeing it’s possible. I mean, I hope that answers the question.