Jose
Over the course of four years, Jose and his family endured as ICE arrested and jailed him arbitrarily, on two separate occasions. In 2017, he was granted post-conviction relief, released from detention, and reunited with his family. Jose works for the New York City Parks Department and lives in the Bronx.
Photographed by Aviva Klein. Note: interview has been lightly edited for readability.
Interviewer 0:01
So, we just want you to feel comfortable. And you know, just again, stating what the goals of this project is. It's really like your opportunity to tell the story in your own way, right? So, you are the narrator of your history. Because a lot of times, like even when you talk to the media, or others, you are kind of told by other people. Told by the immigration court, or whoever, how your story should be told. So, I think that we really see this as an opportunity for you to share on your own terms, what you think people need to hear and understand, with the goal being that these stories are a way to teach the world about what we, I think both understand, as being very unjust…and not a way that people should be treated. So, any questions before we start?
Jose Molina 0:56
Oh, not really. I'm just waiting for the questions, and then I can go in through there.
Interviewer 1:07
Okay, beautiful. …Okay, so we're going to then officially start Jose, the interview. Can you just tell us your full name, where you are, and the date?
Jose Molina 1:21
Yeah, so I'm living in the Bronx, Bronx, New York, and today's date is November 6, 2020, and my name is Jose Molina.
Interviewer 1:33
Right. Thanks, Jose, for being with us. So can you tell us how you came to this project? Or how you came to know IDP?
Jose Molina 1:42
Oh my God—you know I could talk for hours, like, you know. Um, well, what happened to me was, in 2013, the ICE immigration agents knocked on my door early in the morning, and they detained me because of a crime that I committed—at that time was maybe 17 years ago—in 1996—for a crime that I committed in ‘96. Um, and they put me through the deportation proceedings. I was a legal permanent resident at the time, and they told me, it doesn't matter if I'm a legal permanent resident because of the crime. After I served the time for the crime here, they said that now you have to be deported. From my understanding, what was supposed to happen was after I committed the crime, I was supposed to go straight to ICE custody, but that never happened, and I was released. And then in that timeframe, so in that 17 years, you know, I got married, had two children, obtained a job with the City of New York, and continued just living my life. And then, then that happened. And they said that it doesn't matter the timeframe that passed, that I'm still deportable. And that's what—that's where I began my fight. I was detained first for two months, and I won my proceedings through a technicality and was released. And then when I was released, that's when I looked for assistance because I didn't understand anything that was happening to me at all. I knew that I was a permanent resident, but all the other legal stuff behind it—I didn't understand any of it. I didn't know. And that's when I reached out to the Immigration Defense Project [Immigrant Defense Project]. You guys were the only ones that were willing to help me. I mean, I kind of like shopped around to all the organizations and, I guess, because my case was really so difficult, a lot of people just—a lot of organizations and charities—they just said that we can't do anything for you. So that's how I came across you guys.
Interviewer 4:38
I remember that day very clearly—first meeting you—and maybe we can talk about some of the things that I learned from you at that time a little later. But I think the next set of questions is understanding a bit more about why your family came to the United States, or why you came to the United States, and so you know, what are some of your first memories? Or how do you understand your family's journey here?
Jose Molina 5:06
Well, it's not really a family, it’s kind of just my mother. I was born in Panama, and my mother brought me over when I was about a year old, a year and a half old maybe. And that's, to my understanding, all I know.
[Phone rings]
Jose Molina 5:33
[Laughs] That's so funny. That was my mom just calling me.
Interviewer 5:37
That is really funny.
Jose Molina 5:44
So then, um, yeah, that's pretty much all I know. I've been here all my life pretty much—since I was one years old. I was, you know, I was raised here in Brooklyn. I grew up here. All my schooling was here. As a kid, I knew my parents spoke Spanish and stuff, and that's pretty much it, but I was from here. I grew up here, all my life, everything I did was here. I was brought here at one years old, and I never went back. Then at 18, you know, I lived in the rough areas of Brooklyn, you know, it was a lot of—it was really bad. And then that's when I got into the altercation—when I was 18. And up to the age of 18, I always thought—so my mother, my mother, I guess—I’m finding out this information, like after, you know—As a kid I didn’t know any of this. So, I have an adoptive father who's an American citizen, went to Panama and married my mother and brought me over, adopted me, and they came together. So, it was my adoptive father, me, and my mother, and they came over to New York. And then after that, I guess my mother and my adoptive father separated, and that was it. So to my understanding, I was always an American citizen. Until, um, until that incident when I was 18, and I was incarcerated, and that's when I first realized that I was a legal permanent resident. My attorney told me, but I still didn't understand what that, what that was so—And I was only 18, and I'm going through the system, and so that was like the furthest thing in my mind, like to understand what that was. And then all I know is that I went through the court proceedings, I was convicted of the crime, I ended up doing three and a half years in prison, and then I was released. And then that was it. So, I still didn't—I still didn't know the legal processing of being deport, you know, being deported because I was a legal permanent resident. I found out I was a legal permanent resident, but that was about it. And then I was just released, and I moved on with my life. I didn't know anything else. Until, you know, 2013 when ICE came to my door, and told me—oh, yeah, we can deport you because of this, this, that. And that's kind of where I started learning everything.
Interviewer 8:40
So, Jose, when you started learning this, I mean what was your sense of home up until that point? And then what did this idea of you being taken away from home, like, trigger, what was going on in your mind?
Jose Molina 8:59
From—what do you mean? From when I—
Interviewer 9:01
So it seems like you're saying, you know, up until that point, you were basically like: this is the only place I've known. You thought you were a citizen—
Jose Molina 9:09
Yeah. Well then, I found out after I was—after, you know, after I was locked up. I recognized that I was a legal permanent resident, which meant that I was born in Panama, not here. So—but just even knowing that, I didn't really think much of it because I was, I was released. So I didn't, I didn't know any of the legal issues behind it. Nobody said nothing. I did my time. I was on parole. I did my parole. Got a job, got married and continued having my two kids, and I was just moving through life regularly. Working, paying my taxes—not running away or hiding or anything because I didn't know, you know. Nobody said, oh Jose, you know, you could be deported or, you know—because you committed a crime and you're a legal permanent resident—No, you know, I even had—I even went to the immigration to get a new resident card, and nothing happened. You know, so I just like didn't understand that. So for me, life was just regular. You know, I committed that mistake, and I just moved on, and got married, got my two kids, got me a good job—And that was it until 2013— until they told me, oh, because of what happened, now we can deport you and put me through that whole system—And I just couldn't believe it.
Interviewer 10:48
So how did you feel, then when you heard that you might get deported to this place, Panama? You know, from a place that you always thought was your home for your whole entire life?
Jose Molina 11:01
I guess…what's the word—surreal—like, it was, it was happening, but I just couldn't believe it.
[Pause]
Jose Molina 11:15
It was just hard. They took me away; they threw me in jail. I could have, I could have lost—luckily, I have a good job—I could have lost my job. They stripped me away from my wife, and at that time Ariana and Joseph are very, very young, you know? It was just unbelievable. I just couldn't, I couldn't believe it.
Interviewer 11:40
What did you think when you heard, Panama? Did you have any idea of what that could be? You'd never been there.
Jose Molina 11:48
I mean I know—I know where Panama is, and I know what Panama, you know—Like to think of being deported there—I mean, from the minute that they locked me up and put the handcuffs on me, and in the two months that I spent there before I was released—I mean, that's kind of what was going through my mind—Like, you know, what am I gonna do? I don't know, I don't really know anybody over there. I think I have family over there, but I just don't even, I don't even know them—So it’s not like I know them—through my mother's side of the family—But like, I don't—I mean, I kind of—I tried to think about it, but it was like I didn't—there was really no plan on what I was gonna do. Like, I didn't know how this setup is—I mean, from my understanding, they put you on a plane and drop you off at the airport, and then I'm like—I didn't really, I didn't have, I didn't really have a plan. I mean, I was—I mean, I expected this was what was gonna happen because that's what they were telling me that's gonna happen, and I didn't think I had any chance because I'm—I'm locked up. So, it's really happening. Um, and that was it. I mean, I guess the—in that timeframe, it was because of Jennifer, you know, getting me an attorney, trying to get, you know, people to see what they could do for me, and, you know, to see how serious this thing was [...] but um—I was just trying to buy time to get more information because everything was happening so fast, and because I was detained it was hard—because you have no rights in the detention center, like the—you have no legal services, you can't do anything, you can't make, really, phone calls, you can't really send any mail out, you can't really get in contact with anybody—So it was hard for me to like, you know, to navigate and try to get information to help myself. Um, so Jennifer was doing the best that she could, you know. I was just fortunate to have won the case after two months through a technicality, which was able to let me be released, and then do my footwork. And then that's the only reason I'm even here talking to you, because I was able to be released and put my footwork in and get all these entities to help me because I didn't understand. But if I was never, if I was never able to be released from that first time that they detained me, I wouldn't be here talking to you guys.
Interviewer 14:50
Yeah. So, I know this might be a hard place to go, but can you remember the moment—like when ICE came to your house? What was happening with your family in terms of how they were reacting both when ICE took you away, and then the possibility of you being deported?
Jose Molina 15:16
Well, the story of how that happened—it was unbelievable. Um, so they knocked on the door. I remember I was sleeping; Jennifer was sleeping. Um, the kids were in—both of them were each in their own rooms. So, we hear the door knocking, and Jennifer gets up and goes to the door. Jennifer asks, who’s at the door? They say police—they don't say immigration, they don't say ICe—they say police. So, we opened the door. I still live in a bad neighborhood, so the police, you know, always knocking just, you know, to find out information if anything bad happen. So, we didn't really think anything of it, and she opened the door, and they rushed—they rushed my wife, put her to the side and just barged into my apartment. That's exactly how they did it, you know. I got up from my bed because I heard the ruckus from my little hallway into my living room, and, you know, they started asking me questions of who I am, asked me where my ID—they told me do not move, you know. My kids got up at that time because my wife is going hysteric, like, who is this? What's going on? You know, my two kids wake up; they start crying. One ICE agent goes into my daughter's room, one ICe agent goes into my son’s room—tell them to not—to stay where they're at, you know, to not move, you know. My kids are crying. My wife is hysterical. I tell them where my ID is at. They're going through my stuff—finding my ID—they grab my ID. They don't answer any questions, you know. They handcuffed me, and they take me away, you know…
I mean... It was horrible... You know, and my wife is asking, what is this about, what? And they didn't answer anything. It's after they handcuff me and detain me is when they said—oh, oh we’re, um, agents of the immigration, and we're taking you to 26 Federal Plaza. That was the only information that he told me. They threw me in a van and took me to 26 Federal Plaza. They left Jennifer here with the kids—crying—like not knowing what was happening, just like that.
Interviewer 18:00
So what did Jennifer do? Do you remember? Or do you know, in terms of like, what were the first things that she did to try to figure out what was happening?
Jose Molina 18:10
From what she told me, I think they did give her a paper. They gave her paper, um, with a deportation officer number, and said you can call that number. That's what I think I remember because I wasn't here now. This is now—I'm gone—so now this is—so they gave her a number to a deportation officer, and it was just hard to get information from that person. Um, I really don't know all of the footwork in the very beginning that she did because I wasn't here, but it was a lot. I think she had gone down to 26 Federal Plaza to get information and all of this stuff, but it was kind of hard, you know. Obviously, she ended up calling everybody that we possibly know. And then when I got the little bit of information that they gave me, and the chance—the first chance I was able to talk to her on the phone, I gave her a little bit more information. And then, so I mean, it was, it was really, really chaotic—that time.
Interviewer 19:31
So once this idea, or this possibility, of deportation became clear, do you remember the conversations you had with Jennifer at that time? Or what was going through her head?
Jose Molina 19:47
...I mean, the conversation—the conversation did come to a point where we accepted that I was going to get deported. And then she was going to—after I got deported and I guess situated somehow—they were going to come over… And we just make it together wherever we're at...
Interviewer 20:28
Yeah, it was a lot. [. . .] Well, now you don’t have to have that conversation anymore.
Jose Molina 20:34
No.
[Laughter]
“They say police—they don’t say immigration, they don’t say ICE—they say police. So, we opened the door. I still live in a bad neighborhood, so the police, you know, always knocking just, you know, to find out information if anything bad happen. So, we didn’t really think anything of it, and she opened the door... they rushed my wife, put her to the side and just barged into my apartment.”
Interviewer 20:37
So maybe then—in your journey—thinking about, the moment when you realize you didn't have to have that conversation or that thinking anymore—what was going through your head, or—
Jose Molina 20:49
I think, you know, that thinking—that thinking was still so real for—because remember, we finished that case—it finally ended for me—we started—that started in January 2013. It finally, finally ended in September of 2017. So, I'm, you know, in all those years, I'm going through a legal battle with the immigration department. And I mean, that thought of me still being, you know—them still taking me in—I mean, was still real, you know, and I still had to live my everyday life, be professional at work, live regular, be strong for my kids, be strong for Jennifer, and I still got all these things over my head, you know, so the total possibility of us—of me being deported and moving to Panama—that still was a conversation that we were having, all the way until—all the way until I got detained the last time. And the last time was even more scary for me because the last time when they detained me, I had the support of everybody. My union, my agency, you guys. I had, um, Jessica, Immigration Defense Project. Um—aw my—I feel so bad. Who was, who was the um—
Interviewer 22:30
So, we had Bronx Defenders, and then what's her name? Who did the appellate thing? Why am I blanking on her name too?
Jose Molina 22:40
I feel bad right now. I forgot her name.
Interviewer 22:43
Oh, we’ll remember, um—
Jose Molina 22:45
So, you know what I'm saying? So, I had this—I had like a super team.
Interviewer 22:51
Was it Patricia? No, I made that up. Patricia—no?
Jose Molina 22:55
Yes! Patricia.
Interviewer 22:56
Okay.
Jose Molina 22:57
[Peisner] [. . .] Patricia [Peisner]. Yes.
Interviewer 23:05
Go ahead.
“So even though it’s prison, and it’s horrible, you’re still allowed to do these certain things. With the immigration detention... you’re not a citizen. So, you don’t have any rights at all. ”
Jose Molina 23:06
So then even—so I’m out—So here, I'm supposed to feel like, so confident, so good, because I got like a super team, and I'm like, okay, you know, and everything—everybody's working, everything is looking good, everything is in my favor. And then, after I lose my appeal—because that’s what was buying me the time to be out—was the appeals that they were putting in for me—because technically my case demanded mandatory detention—I wasn't supposed to be free. But because I was released—and then they appealed, and then I appealed, and we was just going back and forth—that bought me all that time that I had when I was out. But once I finally lost that appeal, and they sent me back to Varick—that's when I went in for a regular check-in, and they detained me. So that's—and that point is when I really thought it was real because I'm like, wow, they know I’m a city employee, they know I have the union—I have all, all these people, and I have all this going on, and they still detain me. That's when I really gave up, and I said, oh, I'm not going to win this. You know, and I already in that first week—I had the conversation with Jennifer, that, um, I wasn't even going to try to stay and try to battle it. I wasn't gonna—I wasn't going to stay there no two months in that jail like I did the last time. That's how horrible it is, you know. I was going to sign right away and just finish everything. I told Jennifer, listen, I'm not going to stay here months and months at a time in this place trying to fight this thing, because I know, I know all the paperwork was in process and those lawyers in Rockefeller—over by Rockefeller that they did the pardon, that they did the pardon application with the governor—we had that in process. So we had a couple of things in process that I'm pretty sure—that I’m pretty sure would have worked out. But I—at that time being detained—I wasn't, I wasn't gonna wait for that process. That's how bad the jail is—for the detention, for the people who are detained. I wasn't—
Interviewer 25:42
Sorry. Can you talk a little bit more about that—the detention versus prison? Because you've told me before, but in terms of what the difference was, or how you experienced immigration detention?
Jose Molina 25:56
Well, it's completely different. It's like—even though obviously, you're an American citizen, you go to prison, you have rights—even though it's prison, it's horrible, it's bad—you still have rights. You get immediate medical attention, you get schooling, you—I mean, I'm not going to make it sound like it's glorious, because it's not, but you still have these rights. You still get to go to school, you still get to do a trade, they still pay you money for doing certain jobs, you know. You get all access to legal information, you know. You have rights. You could put in grievances, you can go against officers who are you know, doing wrong stuff, I mean, so you have—you do have—I mean you're in prison—but you still have all these rights, where they cannot, you know, they cannot deny you these rights—it's there. So even though it's prison, and it's horrible, you’re still allowed to do these certain things. With the immigration detention, you're considered—you’re not a citizen. So, you don't have any rights at all. Um, you don't get really—I mean, you'll get medical attention whenever they decide you can get it. You really don't get any medical attention, you really don't get no access to any legal paperwork, you really don't get no access to any phones, you don't get no access to any visits, you know—very, very limited, very limited—maybe visits once a week, if you're lucky, because they could just, they could just stop everything when they want. Like if you’re only expecting a visit once a week, that week, they can be like—oh, there's no visits—and that's it. There's no—they don't have to answer to anything. Versus if I was [prison], you know, they have to answer to why there's no visits, or why does—they have to answer to them—But while you're in detention, with immigration, they don't have to answer anything. So if they decide to stop a certain thing, even though that they give it to you very limited, they don't have to answer for anything. So, you’re just like stuck in this void of just being detained. All they really do—the main thing that they do is just feed you—where you have really no access to anything. And I think that's, I think that's the hardest part. Because you can't argue them, you can't make a grievance, you can't—you can't do anything...
So, it's kind of like how can you… Really uncomfortable being detained in that manner...
Interviewer 29:18
So, you know, one thing I'm thinking about is like when you entered into prison, you knew how long your sentence was, right? So there's kind of like an end game and then you knew what would be expected once you left. So when you're put into like ICE detention, what were the things that you were feeling or thinking about in terms of time, or where you would be after release? Are those things that we're going through your head?
Jose Molina 29:55
Well, on the first—on the first one, it took me about a month and a half to get an attorney. So—but already in that month and a half, I've already found out—Oh, and I said, Jennifer, all they want me to do is just sign, and I will just get deported. And that's what I was going to do because I wasn't gonna stay there, and, you know—I already came across people who were there for months and years fighting, fighting their cases that was nowhere close to mine. And they're there for like, a year, they're there for months and years. I'm like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be here—not in this manner, you know—I was going to sign off. But I got the attorney, and I said, okay, let me see what the—I hung in there for a little bit longer, just to see—once I got the attorney to see what the attorney tells me. And then, like I said, I, you know, through God's blessing, I was released very shortly after that. But, um, yeah—I wasn't planning on trying to—I wasn't gonna plan on fighting and staying in there for months like that. Because the first time I got detained was the same as the second time I got detained. I already realized—and for me, I already knew from the experience that I had when I did my regular prison sentence, you know, that I wasn't gonna be able to deal with this. Because, like I said, you have no rights and you're just stuck. I mean, like I said, you know, prison is not fun, but at least you get to navigate—you get, you get to work, you get these programs, you get this, you get that, you get to move around, even though, you know, at the end of the day, you still locked up and put—you know, during the day you get to do these different things. In the detention, in the detention jail system that—you don't—you’re just stuck there. You don't do anything, you just—you don't move, you don't do anything, you know. And the second time was even harder because now they put everybody in cells—in two man cells. The first time, it was kind of like a dorm area, you know, it was a little bit more open, but you still didn't go anywhere. But the second one was more horrible. The second one—they started putting everybody in cells with two people in each cell and—which was harder, because you know, um, for whatever little incidents, they would just lock you in the cell for hours at a time—even sometimes the whole day to the next day. So, it was more intense on the second time I was there.
Interviewer 33:02
Was that the same detention center, Jose?
Jose Molina 33:04
It was the same detention center, but they started putting—I don't know what happened, what changed, but they started putting the majority of people in cells. I don’t know when that happened because from the first time in 2013 to the second time in 2017—I'm pretty sure there was a lot of changes, but that was one of the major changes.
Interviewer 33:27
Was that Hudson or Essex?
Jose Molina 33:29
Yeah, Hudson—
Interviewer 33:32
Can you talk a little bit—you mentioned the second time, I remember very clearly—but this whole thing about the check in, right, because like you're being asked by ICE to go check in, right, as if it's just another appointment.
Jose Molina 33:47
Yeah. That's what it was. It was just another appointment because I had to go see an agent once a month, I think it was—I think it was like maybe once a month, once every two months I would go, and it was just a regular check in. At first, they had like a third-party check in place close to where I live there in the Bronx, and then for whatever reason, they just switched me over to 26 Federal Plaza check in. So that's—I went to 26 Federal Plaza, which—I've been there before for the check in—it was regular and then now—but this time when—after they overturned the decision from the immigration judge who favored on my side—they overturned his decision—when I went in for a regular checkup that was it.... You know, I had a funny feeling that day too. I went in there and usually it’s kind of in and out. They had me wait there for over an hour and that never happened before. And so then when I went in, you know, he will, he will sit me down and just ask one or two couple questions and then that was it—kind of in and out. But this one he was asking me a little bit more information—like re-asking me my name, re-asking me everything like—I'm like but he—you know in my head I'm like, why is he asking me all the information he already got? And then he asked me, oh yeah, let's have—I gotta fingerprint you and get everything back in the system, and I’m like fingerprint me again? And then once he started fingerprinting me is when the next ICE officer comes into the room, and then once they said, um, yes, take off your belt, your shoelaces—that's kind of—kind of when I knew.
Interviewer 35:58
Can you remember that day, like what you had planned going on? Were you on your way to work? Or?
Jose Molina 36:04
Yeah.
Interviewer 36:05
Yeah.
Jose Molina 36:09
Yeah. I took a half a day, but I was gonna go into work. I mean, I had my work uniform on, and um—then that’s when— [deep sigh]
“So, you’re saying because you’re an American citizen, you can rape somebody, do seven years, and then be put back on the same streets… I don’t think it’s fair, you know. I feel if you commit a crime, and, you know, you end up doing the time for it—that you should be released without any repercussions of being deported.”
Interviewer 36:20
And so, you know, based on all this stuff that you're sharing with us, what do you think about this as a system of punishment—deportation as an additional punishment?
Jose Molina 36:36
I mean, I don't think it's—I don't think it's fair. I mean, I don't, I don't think it's fair to deport somebody after they commit a crime, you know. So, you're saying, you're saying because you're an American citizen, you can rape somebody, do seven years, and then be put back on the same streets… But because you're a permanent resident, and you commit a crime of robbery, or assault—because every crime has a story behind it, so it's not—you can't label people because a crime sounds harsh, you know? Um—I just don't, I just don't—I don't think it's fair, you know. I feel if you commit a crime, and, you know, you end up doing the time for it—that you should be released without any repercussions of being deported. I mean, that law, that law came into effect—I think it was in ‘96. I mean… I don't—I don't agree with it at all… I don't know how that's fair—especially if, especially if you're a permanent resident! I mean, it's not, you know—I mean, you know—then you have, you have the other side of the people who don't—that, you know, that don't have the papers. You know, that's a whole different—another story, you know, because now they look at it, you know—you're not here rightfully because you didn't go through the right procedures. But—I'm gonna—like I said, in these past couple years, I learned a lot, and it's difficult to like, separate everything because there's so many different entities and the immigration, and people who are legal been here all their life, you know—so you got to take that into account. It’s just too many different things to—but, um, to punish people—to deport them—I think they should just stop that completely. Regardless of your status...
Interviewer 39:10
Yeah, um, it's really hard to do this interview in this way because I want to have a conversation with you, but I'm just trying to be mindful that I'm supposed to be asking you questions. But, you know, I think part of what you touched on just in your response is this idea of procedures, right? I think for many of the people who don't have any status, it's because there's actually hardly any procedure for them to get status, right? And similarly, for people in your situation, who are green card holders, you know, there's also almost no procedure for you to get out of the system once you get put into it. So you were saying you were subject to mandatory deportation and mandatory detention, and there's nothing you could have done legally. Within what I think most people might think—like, you can go in front of a judge and say, can you weigh all these factors—like that wasn't a possibility for you.
Jose Molina 40:12
Yeah, and they don't even give you—you don't get an attorney. You know, like when you—if you get locked up, you get a legal aid attorney to represent you. I mean, they did just change that not too long ago for detainees being represented by attorneys, but in 2013, when it happened to me, and before—you didn't get issued an attorney… You was just there to fend for yourself and hopefully, somehow—how do you figure out how to get an attorney? And then you're not allowed to call nobody, you know, you get no access to anything, so like, you can't get yourself an attorney.
Interviewer 40:58
In thinking about somebody recently, someone who actually was in a similar situation as you [who] did prison time and then was picked up after a number of years in an ICE raid, was talking about, you know, the system never lets you go. Like, how much punishment does one person need or deserve? And so, you know, I just wanted to see, where does that question land for you when you hear that? Like, how much punishment does one person deserve? And, you know, what would you like to share for people in thinking about how the system works? Or the goals of the system?
Jose Molina 41:44
The system for deportation?
Interviewer 41:47
Yeah.
Jose Molina 41:48
Or the system when—
Interviewer 41:49
The system of punishment overall, punishment overall. Like you did this thing. You did your time. You were in one system of punishment, right, and then whatever impact that had on you—and then you're out, rebuilding your life, and then now you're thrown into this additional system of punishment, just because of like you said, a status which should be meaningless, right? It shouldn’t matter if you're a citizen or not a citizen, like how much punishment does someone need or deserve?
Jose Molina 42:24
Well, I don't think anybody really deserves any punishment—at all. I mean, if you're doing the right thing, nobody should be subject to any kind of punishment, and like I said, people make mistakes in life. Um, how they say—the punishment should fit the crime. So I mean, if it's, if it's smaller end stuff, you know—people make mistakes, you know—there's always a story behind somebody's crime, and they should take that into account, you know. Do people need to be punished sometimes? I mean, I do say yes because then, you know, people don't learn from their mistakes, you know, but then, at the same time, you've got evil people in this world, who deserve to be punished and put away forever.
Interviewer 43:23
But how many evil people are there? Like is the system actually addressing that?
Jose Molina 43:31
I mean, in one way—how many evil people—I don't even know how to answer that.
Interviewer 43:40
[Laughs] Well, what I mean is that, you know, I think a lot of times they construct these systems on this idea that that's what they're solving is, you know, locking up evil people forever. But is that really what the system is doing?
“Look at the environment I lived in. In my first year of high school—I think I’m maybe 14 years old maybe—my ninth grade—in ninth grade, my first year of high school—what do I get? I get a slash across my face from the corner to my eye to the top of my ear. If it wasn’t for a hat that I was wearing, I wouldn’t have an eye right now.”
Jose Molina 44:00
Um, I think for the most part, yeah. Like anybody who's extremely that evil, they are locking them up forever. Some people, some people get away with it. It's hard—it's hard to touch on this topic because it all depends, you know. You got, you got really evil people get away with stuff because the lawyers in different states and their sentencing guidelines and stuff like that. Some people who don't deserve to be doing 15 years for something minor—It's a state by state thing, so it's—and it's your financial status also—it’s a lot to touch on because it's very complicated. This system is messed up. We should—do I agree that we should have a system? Yes, because people need to, to pay for their actions. But the way the way they go about it, you know, can be fixed. Yes. But that’s our legal system. I think for the most part, when you do commit horrific crimes, you are put away forever, which is what they should do, you know? Like I said, every crime has a story behind it, so it’s kind of—its case-by-case basis to determine what kind of punishment, but—
Interviewer 45:51
Yeah, I mean, I guess in terms of then the story—because I think a lot of times, the story doesn't matter in the system. The system kind of flattens people and makes it one category.
Jose Molina 46:01
Look at my scenario, look at my scenario, okay. Um, you read my record and it looks bad. It says—oh, Jose Molina, assault in the first degree. You read the story behind it—I shot somebody. That's very horrible, you know. But what's the story behind what I did? Okay, um, I grew up in Brooklyn, in a really bad neighborhood, getting bullied all the time, getting robbed all the time, and nobody did to help me, you know. You become scared for your life every day. You can't really focus or move on with your life because of, because of the environment that I'm in. I have, you know—and it just got to a point that I was so scared for my life—I, um… got myself a weapon—a gun—and I just couldn't take it anymore, you know. On the next come around that they came to attack me, I ended up shooting the individual. And then what happens? I get locked up, end up doing three and a half years, because I shot somebody. And then the person that I shot, wasn't in—it wasn't an innocent bystander. It wasn't a good person. I wasn't robbing anybody. This person—I was actually doing probably a favor to the society, the way I look at it. But, you know, the legal system says no, you know; you shooting somebody is wrong. You know, so I mean, I'm—I want to, I want to believe I'm a good person. I know, I know my heart, you know. I have feelings. I care for people. I don't like to harm anybody, you know, but I got pushed to that extent where I harmed this individual because, you know—this is what was being done to me, you know. Look at the environment I lived in. In my first year of high school—I think I'm maybe 14 years old maybe—my ninth grade—in ninth grade, my first year of high school—what do I get? I get a slash across my face from the corner to my eye to the top of my ear. If it wasn't for a hat that I was wearing, I wouldn't have an eye right now… All because he wanted a mask that I had—So this is the environment that I grew in and grew up in. So, every day being scared for your life, you know, pushed me to that, you know—but because I did that crime, I still have to be punished, and that's when they sentenced me to two and a half to five years. You know, so like I said, on paper, it looks really bad. But there's stories behind it, you know. Does it make what I did right? No. Do I wish I ever had to do it? No. But it happened, and it was a mistake that I, you know, committed. Only thing I could do, you know, after that point was just move on from that, you know. I honestly didn't feel any remorse because it wasn't like a good person that I did this to, you know.
“I grew up unloved... So, that’s what I wanted. My goal is, you know, I just want to have a wife. I want to have children. I just want to have a job. I just wanted to be regular.”
Interviewer 49:48
Jose, if you feel comfortable sharing, or if you can remember—the first time we met you told me about what was going through your head when you were at Rikers, about how you wanted your life to change from that point? Do you remember this conversation?
Jose Molina 50:05
Um… I’m trying to remember.
Interviewer 50:12
[Laughs] I don't know if I could prompt you too much. It was basically about your family. How you wanted to build a family—
Jose Molina 50:21
Oh, well, that's—okay, well, obviously, being detained, right—I mean, you got to remember I was 18 when I got locked up. So, at that point of time, I was single. I really didn't have much of a family. I had my mother, my stepfather who—very abusive—so I never really, you know—I didn't grow up—I got beat all the time by my stepfather. So even with all the bad stuff happening to me on the street, bad stuff was happening to me inside my house too. So, it was a no-win-win situation for me. I was getting it from both sides, you know. So, I grew up unloved. I grew up being scared of almost everything. So, you know, after that incident, and getting sent to Rikers Island, and just only me—just being by myself—um, I knew after this time, all I really wanted was just like to start a family. So, these were like my little goals because now I'm about to do three and a half years—well, two and a half to five—I didn't know how long—if I was gonna do the five, but five was the was the target because that was the max—and just at that time, I had to just deal with it and navigate my way, you know, through the corrections system, and just like make plans for myself, like I really wanted—because I didn't feel any love, but my heart is good, so I wanted to give love—So, that's what I wanted. My goal is, you know, I just want to have a wife. I want to have children. I just want to have a job. I just wanted to be regular. [Laughs] I just wanted to just have a regular life, that’s it. This wasn't like I want to be the inventor of the super rocket ship—it wasn't no goals like that. It was just a simple goal to get married, have kids, and have a job, and be happy. That's it. Go to the movies, have dinner, park—simple stuff. I didn't want to invent nothing. [Laughs] So then, um, yeah, that was pretty much it, you know. So, in that timeframe that I was being incarcerated, that's kind of like what I, you know, my hopes were, you know—just wanted to have that, you know. Shortly right after I was released is when I came across Jennifer, and that was in 2001. We got married, and here we are rocking and rolling, 20 years later, 20 years later. Ariana is 18, Joseph is 17. So, my plan of what I wanted happened. [Laughs] I was kind of focused on that and it happened. So, I kind of got what I what I kind of planned.
Interviewer 54:13
Yeah, it's a happy ending. So I guess maybe just in terms of the last question, is just to think about, you know, anything like—now that we've talked about this, anything that you want to share or what you would want people to know about your story?
“I’m a strong believer in God, so it’s like just to be faithful, you know, to just have faith. It’s hard to tell somebody to be strong, but you gotta kind of stay mentally strong in situations that you feel that it’s over.”
Jose Molina 54:35
[Sighs] I mean.. I'm a strong believer in God, so it's like just to be faithful, you know, to just have faith. It's hard to tell somebody to be strong, but you gotta kind of stay mentally strong in situations that you feel that it’s over. Are we ever going to change the system? I mean, eventually. I don't see it happening anytime soon. These are things that we're gonna have to deal with, but just to, I guess, never give up, have faith, stay strong—And, um, I don’t know. I know it’s hard. It's hard to give somebody advice like that because it's easy to tell somebody, oh, have faith, everything will be alright. But when they're going through, you know—when they're detained, or they're locked up, or they're going through the stuff, you know—it's not easy, you know, to tell people just—oh yeah, keep your head up, you know. I guess what my story—it’s just have faith and just don't give up and stay strong, you know. A lot of people, you know, break down and can't take it. I mean, I guess everybody's just different. I think I was just a little bit stronger to deal with everything that happened to me because I've been dealing with it since I was a kid. I've been dealing with the beat downs, I've been dealing with a system that, you know—like, even my family system, like failing me, my environment system failing me, you know—so all I could do is just stay alive, and I realized, as long as you stay alive, and you still stayed fighting, you know, time goes by, and I believe everything at one point of time will either get easier or fix itself, you know. I guess—stay strong and have faith, you know. Don't give up, don't break down. Like I said, it's easier said than done. But, I mean, anybody who knows me and knows everything that I went through, you know—I mean, there's people that probably went through worse stuff than me, but this is just my story. Pretty bad, but you know—and then, you know, even with the whole immigration thing behind me, you know, even with the whole immigration behind me—just life in general—still not over—I don't know what's gonna happen 10 years from now, 20—I got Ariana, I still got to be part of—then I got to be part of her life until—for another hundred years. Now I gotta be part of Joseph’s life for another hundred years—until I die. So, who knows what's going to come out of that, and his family, and Ariana’s family, and it doesn't end, you know? So, I mean, it's like—it's a happy ending with the immigration part, but life is still—life is still here. And there's still obstacles now and ahead, you know… but I guess just deal with things as they come and stay strong...
Interviewer 58:58
Thanks, Jose. It's been a journey.