Eva
Eva is a child welfare advocate based in New York City. Eva’s husband, Christopher Simmons, is currently incarcerated at Shawangunk Correctional Facility. Christopher is a facilitator for the Alternatives to Violence program and provides Transitional Service Readiness. He is currently working on his Bachelor’s degree.
Note: interview has been lightly edited for readability.
Interviewer 00:00
Awesome, thank you. Okay, so first thing’s first. Eva, could you please state your full name, today’s date, and your location?
Eva 00:12
Sure. I'm Eva Santiago. Today is the 12th, November 12th, 2020, and I'm speaking to you from my home in Manhattan, New York.
Interviewer 00:27
Great. And so first, could you please tell us how you came to know about this project, or know about the Immigrant Defense Project?
Eva 00:34
Sure, I actually got connected with David George. I had called because my husband, who's incarcerated, actually did time with Hamza, who is the Associate Director of RAPP [Releasing Aging People in Prison]. And I was interested in getting some type of support so my husband could have time served and deported back to Jamaica, or Clemency that's how I connected with you, Karelle, which is always a pleasure.
I had reached out to a couple of people over the years, to several organizations, in hopes to getting support in trying to have my husband come home soon. I really haven't had any luck. I understand that certain organizations have to have a certain amount of constituents to receive funding, but at times it can be frustrating.
So that's how I felt in the past, because everybody has taken a lot of information regarding my husband. But to my surprise, when I spoke to you, you were actually the only person that was really patient and returned my calls in a timely manner, and you really just went through the process with me. Just you know, just dealing with it is traumatizing in itself. So, I thank you, again, Interviewer, because like I said, you're the only person that I've come in contact with that was really supportive and sincere.
Interviewer 2:41
Thank you. And likewise, it's been a pleasure talking to you. And hopefully, you know, this conversation that we have is just another opportunity for you to share your story and share your husband's story. And, you know, I think it's really valuable for other people to hear. You know, legal interventions and remedies aside, hopefully, this is sort of a different platform.
So, you've touched on two things, both his incarceration, as well as his potential deportation. Could you talk a little bit more about when you first understood that possibility that he might be deported back to Jamaica, and what that felt like?
Eva 3:19
Being educated on clemency or pardons, is all new to me. I'm still unclear as to the meaning of certain systems and processes. But in speaking with my husband, who has appealed twice, we just handed in a clemency application this year. I wrote him a four-page letter on his behalf, regarding all of his accomplishments since he's been incarcerated and so, we were just trying to explore other avenues.
At this point, to be honest with you, it's really not about him coming back to New York, for me, it’s, and for him. But for me, it’s really about having him free. And we’ve spoken about those barriers, where he said, “You know, babe, you know I want to be with you” and, you know, I totally understand, but I just want you to be free, wherever that is. So that's when, we decided to explore deportation, and what that looks like.
Interviewer 4:44
Had he otherwise talked much about his life in Jamaica prior to coming to the U.S.? Do you know much about that? Maybe the reasons why he came to the U.S., or do you know anything about his life previously?
Eva 5:00
Yeah, definitely. Christopher came to New York in 1980. He was eight years old. His mom and sister came to New York first. He came with his brother and his stepfather. And, yeah, it was a shell shock to him. You know, the lifestyle is very different. He's very proud of his culture and his heritage, that's something that we both have in common. We talk about our ancestry and how tied our Taino Arawaks/Maroon tribes came, from Jamaica, Puerto Rico, you know, a lot of the islands. So, going back home to him, it's either or, he considers New York his home since he's been here most of his life. He still has family in Jamaica. But his immediate family is here. His mom's here, his step dad's here, and his siblings are here.
Interviewer 6:04
Has he shared other memories about his childhood, what it was like in Jamaica? Or things that he talks about—or maybe thinks about—even though he hasn't been there in a very long time?
Eva 6:18
Yeah, we do, we talk about it all the time. So, Christopher being born in Jamaica doesn’t fit the stereotype, regarding smoking marijuana. He's never smoked a day in his life. And he drank once, a piña colada at BBQ, which I told him doesn't justify as real alcohol. [Laughs] He’s really about not only having clarity, and control of things that are pertaining to his life, but also with his health. He's always been very healthy. He's always been athletic. You know, when he talks about Jamaica, he always talks about how “I used to run around everywhere,” and, “We had mango trees and a garden with herbs,” just that healthy lifestyle.
His grandmother actually has a house in Jamaica that she has never sold, because it's for him. So, he definitely has a place to go if he's deported, so I'm sure that helps also. It's always happy moments, when he talks about his childhood. Yeah, it's always good stuff. I just went to see my dad in Puerto Rico. And it's so funny, I love dogs. I'm a dog lover, right? And so, I told him that the only thing I ask is for a dog. I want a dog. This is what I've been saying for six years, “that's what I want, a dog.” And he said, “Eva, but in Jamaica, you know, they don't put leashes on their dogs, you know, dogs just run free.” And so, when I was in Puerto Rico last week Christopher said did you see anybody walking their dog?” And I'm like, “No. . .” We both laughed.
We just have always had a lot of things in common. I knew Christopher in ‘93. I was almost 24. He was 21. We didn't know each other well, but we knew each other in passing. He's a clean cut, preppy, and well-spoken. Very polite, well-mannered, you know? Old school, definitely old school. And then, six years ago, I got in contact by one of his family members who asked if I could write to him we started speaking in 2015.
Interviewer 9:46
I didn't realize that. That's really wonderful. Thank you for sharing.
Eva 9:51
Thank you.
Interviewer 9:53
And I know you alluded to, sort of his sense of home and community that he had established in New York, as well as in Jamaica. And you've touched a little bit on that in terms of how you got to know him. Are you able to talk a little bit more about that, sort of his sense of home or community in New York? And you know, how he talks about that, how he thinks about that?
Eva 10:18
Yeah, he was always a straight-A student. Academically he always did well. Popular, to a certain extent, you know? Very confident. Christopher is very confident, ‘til this day. In a good way, in a humble way, you know what I mean? Not conceited, but confident. He's kind of torn by both worlds, because he's very proud to be Jamaican, but he's also like, “I'm from Brooklyn.” And I'm from the Bronx, so we kind of go back and forth with that (In a funny way).
I think one of the things that we talked about, after all those years was Hip- Hop culture. Because ironically, people don't really think of me as being into hip hop, because I'm older now and kind of somewhat conservative, kind of... But I was heavily into hip hop. And so that's when that hip hop era was really just starting, at that time. We always talk about rivals between Brooklyn and the Bronx and artists, and so when we reminisce about New York back then, that's one of the things we reminisce about.
Interviewer 11:38
And this is pretty unique to your story, so we don't really have a question about this, but I'm curious, based on what you've shared with us already, in terms of how you were able to reconnect with him. What was that like for both of you, to reconnect after all these years? And how your relationship has evolved over time?
Eva 11:58
It was terrifying for me, I don't think it really hit me until he asked me if I would visit. He was at Sullivan Correctional Facility. That's actually where Hamza was. And so is the appellate advocate, Mr. Robinson, who is an amazing man. I had never been to a prison before. I think when I was like, maybe 18 years old, and a friend of a friend was at Rikers. I experienced that once, but never a maximum prison facility, so just the first visit, the first couple of visits, was pretty hard.
I was just thinking to myself, “What am I doing? What would my family think? What am I crazy?” I mean, I'll be honest with you, those were the thoughts that were going through my head. I actually did The Moth three times. And so, I talked about that experience and the love that we have for one another.
But as nervous as I was, the minute I saw him, that was it. The visiting room was crowded. And like I said, it was the first time that I had ever been to a prison, so I was terrified! I really was. And then I don't–you know, it sounds so corny when I think about it, but the minute they opened that door, and our eyes met, it was like nobody else existed in the visiting room. We just talked and talked and talked, and I remember the second visit, I was still very uncomfortable. And I kept on looking at the clock. And he kept on saying, “Babe, don't look at the clock. Don't do that.”
I think we had asked one of the COs after a while, because there was a couple of COs that were really nice and they were some that were terrible, but there were some that were really nice. And so, I think that there was one in particular where I was like, “Can you just make sure that I sit away from the clock?”
It was bittersweet, you know? Because I was so happy to see him, but under those conditions, it was hard. And it was, I think the hardest for me, until this day is because now we have trailers. I haven't seen Christopher since February because of COVID, and so, leaving him is the hardest. It still is. ‘Til this day, when I leave him, I cry. it's the same, that intensity never leaves.
“I think the prison system should be abolished. Definitely. It doesn’t rehabilitate anybody. If anything, it just traumatizes people more than they’ve probably already been traumatized, you know, from just like, their regular lives.”
Interviewer 15:15
Thank you for sharing. You've touched a little bit on this, but what do you think, now that you've had this first-hand experience with visiting him in prison and being really intimately familiar with his life and your life under these circumstances…what do you think of this system of punishment that he is subject to, and that, you, in turn, are now also subject to?
Eva 15:40
Oh, I think the prison system should be abolished. Definitely. It doesn't rehabilitate anybody. If anything, it just traumatizes people more than they've probably already been traumatized, you know, from just like, their regular lives. And I say that because I feel that we're all dysfunctional in some way or another, right?
It can really, really break somebody down. it's not because he's my husband, but he has this will about him. Everybody sees it, from like, COs, to when he graduated with his Associate’s last year, to other prisoners. so many people see it. He's driven, he's driven to change his life. Even though he's where he's at, he hasn't given up.
I know that probably not everybody knows this, but you know this because you and I have talked about this in length, but he's been the president of several programs while he's been incarcerated. And I mean, like, for 10 years, or like 15 years. He was the president of the Rastafarian community, the president of that African and Caribbean Unity Program. He's taught Sign Language; he's worked with the mentally ill. I mean, he just keeps going.
He's working on his Bachelor's now. He got transferred from Sullivan, I believe that was June of 2019. He got transferred from Sullivan to Shawangunk. And, Shawangunk, believe it or not, Shawangunk and Sullivan, they were built pretty much the same time.
But if you go to Shawangunk, you think that it was built like in the 1800s. They don’t have many programs; the facility is dark. Their heaters.. I mean, just like, the smallest things, right, can make a difference in your everyday life. The heaters are outside of the cells, right? So, at Sullivan, the heaters are inside, so in the winter I know that he's warm, but being at Shawangunk, he's not… At Shawangunk, they don't have a window in the cell. At Sullivan they do, so, it's just those little things that make a difference for somebody’s mental state. I hear the difference in his voice.
He was at Sullivan for 23 years. He was so used to it you know? it’s really sad to say, but that was like his home, due to him being there for so long.
They had tons of programs and he was so heavily involved. Even like the physical appearance of the prison. At Sullivan, the prisoners keep the upkeep of the prison. It's painted white, everything's white, everything's clean.
The CO’s that are educated on the system and who don’t seem racist, treat the prisoners humanely, but it’s those CO’s that are uneducated and ignorant who treat the prisoners inhumanely and dehumanize them regularly.
Shawangunk is totally different. It's a different atmosphere. Not to say that Sullivan doesn't have a negative effect, I think any prison does. But there is a difference. When, my first visit at Shawangunk, I'll never forget that. Because you go through the reception–well not reception, the, you know, the reception area—and you speak to a CO, and then you go down a ramp by yourself, which I wasn't used to. By yourself, you go through the metal detector, you come back, you pick up your shoes, you go back that ramp, through a door, by yourself. Through another door by yourself. It's dark, the doors are metal, but painted burgundy, and there's nobody escorting you to the visiting room.
20:40
So, for the first visit was like, “Okay, well, if I walk this way and the door opens, then I know I'm going in the right direction.” You know? That was just shocking for me. At Sullivan, you go, and they escort you and you go outside, it's very different. It's just a different atmosphere. So that was really hard for Christopher. I was able to buy him a TV, and I think that was the only thing that has kept him preoccupied.
The TV was very helpful, until he started classes again, because he really didn't know what to do. We didn't know how it would be that was really hard for the whole family because we didn't know he was getting transferred to Shawangunk until two days before his graduation. I had called Albany and I had spoken to–I forgot her name–the woman that dealt with Sullivan. I said, “This is unacceptable. He's graduating, how are you going to punish him for excelling?” And she was just like, “Well, did he start school?” And I said, “Yes,” I said, “He graduates in two days with his Associate’s, he's already started his Bachelor's.” And she told me, “Well, if he's already started school, they can’t transfer him.” So, they stopped it, they stopped. He said that the COs came back and said “Okay, you don't have to pack.” And then three hours later they said “ pack your things.
So, I was really upset. His graduation was supposed to be a day for us to rejoice and it was supposed to be definitely a happy moment. And it wasn't. They literally transferred him the minute that the graduation celebration was over. They transferred him to Shawangunk. That was really hard on us. And it's really, it's crazy how that works sometimes, when you think some people are probably like, “Why would you think one prison was better than another?” It's just the conditions, you know what I mean? And it's to the point where Christopher's like, “I wish I was at Sullivan.” You know, “At least I could be productive, at least the environment’s different.” Yeah, so that's just some of the things that we've been going through just recently.
Interviewer 23:23
Yeah, that sounds really difficult. And you touched on this idea of home again, but with home being sort of where he's been incarcerated. Is that something that he talks about, how he's established that sense of home? Or talking about other relationships, you know, bonds with people that he's made in prison, how that has shaped his life there?
Eva 23:45
Yeah, he does. But he never addresses it as home, but when he talks about it, it's pretty apparent, you know? Yeah, he cried. And I had never seen him cry before that, so it was hard.
Since I haven’t seen him for almost a year it puts a strain on our relationship. This is not an easy road. I remember that I had spoken to a friend of mine, who is formerly incarcerated, but we were talking about me being naive right? I was just like, “There should be a manual, so that wives know what they're getting into. There should be a help tip book, you know, just a small little insight...” And he was like, “Eva, no.”
And I said, “Why? I would have liked to have known tips that I know now. Like having to have all of your sauces for cooking for a trailer in plastic containers, not being allowed to have lotion bottles with pumps, learning how to cook on an electric stove vs a gas stove” He said, “Eva, if they had a manual like that, nobody would marry anybody who's incarcerated.” You know, it didn't even dawn on me.
Yeah, it's just, it's hard. It's hard on the families. I have family members that do not accept our union. I no longer speak to a family member whom I've always been close to all my life. It's even hard to get certain supports for wives, you know? I've tried a couple of organizations. but sometimes that's hard also, because there aren't that many. It just puts a strain on our relationship, you know? And it's hard because, I almost feel guilty for even saying it out loud, but I'm mad at him. You know, sometimes my frustration with him being there. I know that he shouldn’t be there, especially for the amount of years that he has.
“Why do I have to go through this?” You know, which is so selfish. I think it's just in the moment, because it's just hard to not be with him. On paper I’m married, but physically, I'm not. At times when I hang out with friends who are married, or I hang out with my sister who’s married, even though her and her husband are great, it’s another reminder that he isn’t here, especially when everybody else is with their significant other, and I'm the only one who isn't with somebody. It's not an easy road, it really isn't, but we just kind of go through it.
Interviewer 27:04
That sounds really challenging. Do you want to share with us some of the things that keep you going? Or things that give you hope? Or just how you continue to make it through, whether that's something that you share with Christopher or just something that you've honed on your own?
Eva 27:22
Christopher's funny. Laughter makes, oh my God, it makes everything. I remember when we used to have visits, his friends used to be like, “Why? Why is it that you and your wife are laughing through the whole visit?” We would constantly be laughing, LAUGHTER IS HEALING!
We argue too, just like any other couple, but we laugh a lot, which makes a difference.
[Sigh]. My love for him makes a difference. It's not easy. I think for a lot of spouses, you go back and forth, but it’s intensified to the tenth power in this circumstance. There are times when you get so exhausted, emotionally, and physically at times. Especially when it's – I know, this sounds like so minimal, it's snowing outside, and I have to get up at five o'clock in the morning to lug all this food and clothes to go upstate. The process and preparation is time consuming.
I was speaking with Christopher about this, and he would have no idea because he's never sent a package, right? With the exception of like, returning shoes, or something that I sent him that don't fit. But he's never sent a package, so he's like, “You know, babe, I just don't understand why you don't plan it out a little bit more?” And I'm like, “Babe... I have to cover the box. By the time I find a box that fits all of the food, and then like, before I go to work, I'm going to the post office to make sure that there isn't a line, so that I could send this food out on time... and when the post office takes longer than expected and then you get a CO who doesn’t give a shit and takes their time some of the food is spoiled when it gets to you.
Interviewer 29:38
And this is sort of jumping back a little bit, but you spoke about Christopher's immediate family also mostly being in the US. And this was one of the first questions I asked, but do you have a sense of how they've dealt with, or processed, both the reality of his incarceration, as well as the possibility of his deportation?
Eva 30:00
I get along with his family, I get along with his mom and I get along with all of them, actually. But they don't visit often. And I don't judge them, because I don't know what they went through, right? Before? I could only assume that it's really hard for his mother to even have to see him there, you know? His Mother her and I had spoken about it briefly, about him going back to Jamaica, they would all love that. At least they could see him. But I think it's really hard for his family to see him in prison
And like I said, they probably would visit him like twice a year. One of those days would be the Rastafarian festival, because it's a little more family oriented. The thought of him being either deported or coming back to New York with time served . . . that's definitely something I'm sure that they've always, you know, wished...
It's just when you think about, like, the stigma, right? And the biases that are stuck to someone who's incarcerated. You know, it's ironic, because every family member will say, “Christopher was the level-headed one, Christopher is still the one we go to for advice.” And it's so apparent, even when we've gone to the festivals, or his graduation that he’s seen as someone with good character.
I'm a procrastinator at times I will definitely admit it, it's not a good trait. He's not. So, you know, Christopher's the type of person who always looks for a solution to a problem. He always has to be productive in what he's doing, and he really is on top of things.
…
It's so easy for me to talk about him. I've always seen him as a person that has a great heart and has really good character, right? And so, when I reached out to the appellate advocate, who I had no idea–I didn't know who he was, we've never spoken ever. I went to a different organization who said they would connect me to the appellate advocate.
They didn't. So, I just looked him up myself, and I called, and when I spoke to the appellate advocate, he said, “Okay, well, where is your husband?” I said, “Sullivan.” And he said, “Really? I was at Sullivan.” So, then I said, “Okay,” and then he asked “What's his name?”
And when I told him his name, he was like, “What!? I know who that is!” He is so on-point.” And I'm like, “Yeah, I know.” You know, it was just reassuring to hear it from other people that know him, because that's just how he is. He wrote him a phenomenal letter regarding Clemency.
To my surprise–I keep on meeting people who know him, and they all say the same thing so, it doesn't confirm, because I know how he is, But it's just nice to hear.
When I had done The Moth for the second time I’ll never forget it… We were in the green room, and there was a gentleman that was speaking about his incarceration. And it was heartfelt, it was, he was wrongly convicted. He was innocent of rape, so you could imagine, right, in prison, that's not going to fly. That's definitely going to put you through a lot.
So, he's talking and we're in the green room, right before we go on. And so, whenever I used to do The Moth, I would show them a picture of Christopher. Because it's about Christopher, so, the gentleman who I’m speaking of asked? “Can you make that bigger? Can you enlarge the picture?” And so I did, and he said “I know him.” And I was just...
That was the first time I've ever spoken to someone that actually knew him inside prison who was outside And I was just like, “What?” And he said, “Yeah, “I know him.” And he told me to just do what I have to do to keep it together. He was just like, “You can't give up because this person tried to commit suicide a couple of times.” And so, he said “Yeah, he had like a heart-to-heart pep-talk with me and said “ Just keep it moving, keep yourself preoccupied with programs.”
It was really nice because after the event, one of the people from The Moth was standing next to me and Christopher called me I had him on speaker, and she was like, “That's Christopher! I get to speak to him”.
I think, even though it's really rough to live this life, right? [Pause] It just says to me that he's the right person, which gives me the strength to keep on fighting.
Interviewer 37:40
He sounds really remarkable, and hearing you talk about him is really lovely. And I'm sure hearing other people who he's interacted with, or whose lives he's impacted, is also really powerful for you. How does Christopher talk about what he's done with his time, and the programs he's enrolled in, or his educational path? How does he talk about these things, or how they’ve shaped his life?
Eva 38:12
He loves school when he started school, it was always about him talking about classes, and “Did you know?” You know what I mean? He’s always maintained A’s in all of his classes, so education was huge. And you know, more than I do, and, of course, Jane knows more than I do, that the rate of recidivism is like two percent if you have a college degree and it gives somebody who's incarcerated so much hope.
It exposes them to the outside world. It exposes them to different cultures and a different way of thinking.
I definitely heard a difference in just speaking to Christopher. It was really nice to just hear him talk about something that he was really interested in. I was just really, really happy that he started again. There was a set back, because he had already started his Bachelor's, and then he had to stop. But yeah, when I spoke to him yesterday, he was just like, “Oh, well, because of COVID they can't come to the prison, but they'll send us assignments, and I have to work on a paper ,So yeah, that definitely is a weight lifted off of me, because I know that he's keeping himself busy.
School is huge. And as you know, there are a lot of facilities that don't have it. You know, the one thing that is really rehabilitative, is school, but, this system makes a lot of money off of our Loved ones who are serving time, so… It is what it is.
Interviewer 40:30
Yeah. That's sort of a bit of a transition into one question, which is based on something that someone–a reflection that someone shared with us about how sort of the system never lets you go, and asking. “how much punishment does one person really need?” And so, you've touched on some of this, but where does that question land for you? And what do you think people should know about how the system works, or doesn't work?
Eva 41:00
You know, I think that I spoke to this one family member of mine, right? We were talking about Black Lives Matter. And my son protested for three days and was jumped by eight police officers, and they barricaded him, so that none of the protesters could help him.
My son and I would talk about systems that have always oppressed Black and Brown communities and how it came to be. And we all know how it was created and once they abolished slavery, that it was just another form of labor, we all know that so it's really hard for me, I think for many–and not only People of Color, I think that definitely white people who “get it,” right, that rules don't apply to people the same.
When I think about like all these medical marijuana dispensaries, I think about you could watch a documentary on a white woman grandmother that has a marijuana field in Colorado, But then you think of all these Black and Brown people that are still incarcerated for marijuana charges. It's the same with child welfare. It really isn't any different, child welfare is the pipeline to prison. Our communities, Black and Brown, poverty stricken for the most part, but middle-class families also are affected by the systems, solely because we’re People of Color.
And so, it's draining, there is a sense of fear all the time. I can never ever know what it's like to be dark skinned, right. And I say that because I'm Puerto Rican. Being Puerto Rican consist of Taíno, Spaniard, and African, with the oppressor being the Spaniards. And even though I'm a light-skinned Puerto Rican, I have dealt with racism in my day, but I could never ever know what it feels like to deal with racism in the way that Christopher has dealt with it on a regular basis.
It’s terrifying that these systems are taking our people, it really is. It's terrifying. It's . . . [Pause] It’s hard. It's hard on all of our families. It's hard on our children and something has to change.
I don't know if there's anybody on here that are Trump supporters, but I'll be honest with you, I just have to put it out there. I'm not a Trump supporter. I never have been. And just that blatant racism, white supremacist, mentality. You see it now so much with this administration. And it just . . . You know, you would think that it couldn't get any scarier, but it has, it really has.
…
I read an article a couple of years ago about, they had done a study on how the darker you are, the longer the sentence. And so those are the things that I think about, right? Christopher has never killed anybody. He doesn't even have a lengthy criminal record. And I'm not, I'm not here to condemn anybody who has, in the sense that I believe everybody deserves second chances. I truly believe that in my heart. I believe that no one can really judge you, with the exception of God. I believe in God, that's just my own personal belief. But it's hard because he's never killed anybody. And I have friends who have. I have friends who are professors at Columbia, who facilitate at The New School, I am a credible messenger. I do have friends at The New School, and it just makes it harder for me to see him there, and to see all of what he's accomplished.
And he's still there. You know, so, these systems are designed to oppress our communities. They continue to oppress our communities, and like I say, all these systems: from the educational system, to child welfare, to mass incarceration, to mental health. I have a younger son who is on the Autism spectrum. And I had to have him admitted at a hospital at one time. We went in and I'll never forget it. We went through a metal detector, they took his clothes, they put it in a paper bag, they put it in a locker, they told me to go to the other room. And I looked at the security guards, and I said, “This is no different from prison. This is literally the same thing.”
It so happened that there was someone who had like some severe mental issues, and a fight broke out. They asked me to leave and I freaked out, like “Oh my God, my son, he's in there.” It was like this whole, you know…
But if you have money, and you're white, you know, and excuse me for saying it–I hope I don't offend anybody–but if you have money, and you're white, you're not going to go through that, right. You're going to get the supports that you need. You're gonna either get a top-notch attorney, you're going to be able to get some kind of therapeutic, holistic, necessary treatment that is needed. It just looks very different. And our families are affected all the time.
“But if you have money, and you’re white, you’re not going to go through that, right. You’re going to get the supports that you need. You’re gonna either get a top-notch attorney, you’re going to be able to get some kind of therapeutic, holistic, necessary treatment that is needed. It just looks very different.”
Interviewer 49:04
Yeah, you did. And all of your perspective has been really great. And you've touched on a lot of really interesting things, and it's just been really wonderful to listen. So I know we've touched on a lot, ranging from prisons generally, to policing and how communities are oppressed, and then also, more of just your personal experience, and Christopher's experience. And again, the goal of this project is really to have this be about your story and his story in your own words. So, if there are other anecdotes that you want to share, or other things that we haven't covered tonight that you think you would want to share with us, I invite you to do that in an open-ended way.
Eva 49:58
I don't know if there was there was anything that I should have touched on that at that I didn't. [Pause] Oh I forgot to mention that Christopher had the Covid 19 Virus in February of 2020. At the time we didn’t know that it was the Corona Virus. Christopher has bad allergies and every time he would try to talk his voice would crack, he had shortness of breath, and felt weak. He had told me that he wasn’t going to call me for a couple of days, due to him wanting to rest. After two days I called the facility to check up on him, because I was worried that something may happen, because as you know there have been many of people who are incarcerated who pass away and the family is the last to know. Christopher called me that day and stated that he went to medical and they gave him Tylenol. It was the grace of GOD that he overcame that. Christopher has symptoms today: fatigue, shortness of breath at times, and a bit of depression, which is not like him.
There is something else that bothers me. I just feel like there's division at times between Black and Brown communities where there really shouldn't be. I think that if we were united, [pause], I think that it would definitely strengthen any type of activism that needs to be done. Or organizing that needs to be done.
People of color as a whole... I never told you this, but I used to sing for a Native American Pow-Wow group many years ago, before I had my kids. So, when I talk about People of Color, it's all People of Color, right? And there shouldn't be a division.
All Communities Black, Brown, Asian, Native American, Middle Eastern, etc. experience these systems that oppress us. At times, there's definitely unity, but in working in this field, I do see division which is upsetting. I just don't understand it. I don't.
That wasn't a positive thing, but it’s something that I’ve experienced continuously that I've been affected by. You know, and I feel it. And Christopher and I talk about it all the time. Actually, I'll tell you a really cute story: So Albizu Campos was kind of like Puerto Rico's Malcolm X, right. He started the Independent Party. He was the first Puerto Rican that graduated from Harvard. And he took his law degree and ended up moving to Puerto Rico. I believe his wife was from Chile. And he ended up giving free legal representation for the low-income communities in Puerto Rico. He wanted–he fought really hard for Puerto Rico to be independent.
I have a book which is about his life and happens to be the only book written in english, so I gave it to Christopher, and I was like, “You gotta read this! Trust me, babe, you’re gonna read this book, and you are not gonna put it down.” And so, he really enjoyed it. It was actually falling apart, so he laminated the whole thing, right? Like the cover and the back. And he said, “Eva, it's so funny that a lot of the prisoners here who are Puerto Rican, don't know anything about him.” And so, what happened was–it was really nice, he ended up lending the book to certain people, Jamaican and Puerto Rican, they all read the book! Just to give you an idea of the commonality that we have when we talk about cultures, and how all of our cultures are so similar. People think that they aren't, but we’re all connected somehow. That was definitely a good moment for us.
Interviewer 54:21
That's lovely. I want to get my hands on a copy of that book. What was the title?
Eva 54:25
I'll lend it to you. I’ll totally lend it to you.
“They’ve been in prison for many years, rehabilitated, and just really, really productive–and he’s not the only one, there are many that really can contribute to our communities. ”
Interviewer 54:30
Awesome. Yeah, so again, if you have any final thoughts that you want to share? Anything last minute that comes to mind, or sort of just something you want to leave us with? No pressure, you've shared plenty, and it's been really wonderful, but just in case, you know, anything else comes up.
Eva 54:52
Yeah, I think that for me, it's difficult, because when we talk about pardon, and we talk about clemencies, and the prisoners with violent offenses don't qualify. You know, and it’s usually prisoners that have violent offenses that have long sentences, right? Christopher was arrested in ‘96. So that's when a lot of these harsh sentences were implemented, these prisoners really need help.
They've been in prison for many years, rehabilitated, and just really, really productive–and he's not the only one, there are many that really can contribute to our communities. I have two sons, my older son, I’ll never forget it, I told him that we were getting married. And he was like, “I need to meet him.” That was it. It was really no other discussion, just “I need to meet him.” He's 23 now, and he came with me, and they spoke for three hours.
And of course, you know, in the visiting room, you can't really go anywhere. I was hanging out by the vending machine, and like, you know, “Okay, let me go to the bathroom again . . .” It was like that kind of thing. Yeah, they spoke for hours. And he told my son, “It's so easy to get in here. It is so easy to get in here. And it is so hard to get out. You need to always remember that, you know, this is where this system wants you to be. And, you know, you really, need to do things that are productive, and make sure that you hang around with people who are doing something with their lives. Because you can end up here, just like anyone else.” You know, and to this day, my older son respects my husband.
Interviewer 57:33
Thank you for that.